Yet there were complaints from MS-DOS users that Windows " ... has nothing I want"  so why change? I well remember them because i was the one responsible for the making the change.

I remember DOS screens. They were about as un user friendly as you could get! A totally blank black screen with "Enter Input".

One had to have a crib sheet of keystrokes all the time. One can still get a glimpse of the early Windows in Star Trek IV in the scene where the formula for transparent alluminium is being entered!

The important reality for me is FSX and all my addons run marvelously on Windows 8.

 

What else matters ?   :rolleyes:

 

Steve

Well what matters is you share what you've learned about Windows 8 and how you accomplished getting everything to run under that OS. I did the same thing with Windows 7 and FS9 a couple years ago. My write up is in the Windows 7 forum.

Nevertheless we all will eventually change. I can remember similat complaints on every change over. They began with the change from MS-DOS to Windows.

Not always true as many examples here from the corporate world can attest. Personally I'm still using FS9 because it works despite all the hoopla over FSX. The continued issues I read about concerning FSX makes me shy away from upgrading at an expensive cost. I only upgraded from Windows XP to 7 after my computer caught a major virus. I actually put XP back on my computer but wanted to test out the 64bit advantages I kept hearing about so I bought a big enough HD and dual booted (which I still have setup today). I was blown away by 7 and the performance I was getting using FS9 in that environment. My machine felt like a brand new system. 64Bit is pure innovation and a step up that everyone can attest to. You get much more out of your hardware and applications with 64Bit. If I'm not seeing advantages like that why bother. Same with FSX, why go through an endless headache for a graphic update. For those that have FS9 looking much like FSX it's sinceless unless you have the extra time.

 

All in all people don't just eventually update when quality tried and true products are already available. DOS and W95 were unique to what we have today in that we had inferior options to what was coming out (everyone could see that). Today we have Vista, XP, and 7 all at a stage of maturity that offers trouble free operation. We said this same thing about Flight Simulator in the past. Windows 8 is nothing more than 7 with things moved around here and there and an ugly Metro start screen slapped on top to confuse people. Not much traction will happen with something like that outside of smart device implimentation. For the FSX users that say they see a slight advantage in W8 I say by all means go with it. FSX needs all the advantage it can get, I'm actually happy it works. Maybe with Blue and newer hardware FSX might finally be able to run maxed out (not...). ;-)

Not unexpected, but Dell is another company affected by poor Windows 8 adoption: http://www.theverge.com/2013/4/1/4170028/dell-says-pc-business-in-danger-from-poor-windows-8-sales

 

HP going Android tablets: http://www.businessinsider.com/what-hps-android-tablet-means-for-microsoft-2013-2

Window 8 all just buy windows 7 or XP before all touch Vista =pista, or WIndows 8 that hides things from the user.

Not unexpected, but Dell is another company affected by poor Windows 8 adoption: http://www.theverge.com/2013/4/1/4170028/dell-says-pc-business-in-danger-from-poor-windows-8-sales

 

HP going Android tablets: http://www.businessinsider.com/what-hps-android-tablet-means-for-microsoft-2013-2

It's amazing the model MS tried to push on us with Flight is being flat out rejected by such a wide margin. It's to a point it's affecting some pretty hefty major corporations. The PC is far from dead but with no innovative products to push hardware who's going to bother. I don't care what anyone says FS in itself pushed people to upgrade hardware and software on a consistent bases. It's interesting reading things like Silverlight was canceled. Flight Simulator was just getting it's legs in the aviation training arena. To have a company like Lockheed pick up the product should have told them something. It's crazy what's going on at MS, it's like a subtle dismantling of the company. It may be too late before Microsoft board get's wise and discontinue Ballmer's contract. He's not only affecting Microsoft and this community with is psychotic way of doing things, he's hurting businesses far and wide. Very sad...

What confuses me is that "touch screens" have been around for a while, some even support gestures ... I recall many many years ago (10+) we used a touch screen monitor when our sales guys were demonstrating our product.  It worked perfectly and I didn't have to change any code ... big win win.  But after a few years that monitor finally failed and we stopped using touch screens ... touch screens get dirty frequently and are very fragile to any liquids at all on them -- but eventually the sensitivity starts to stray and requires constant "calibration".

 

1.  Touch was merely a driver install with a touch sensitive monitor -- that was 10 years ago, hard to call it innovation (certainly not Apple's innovation)??

2.  No one (our potential clients) cared that we had "touch" (and this is Point of sale software too).

3.  It was about an 85/15 split on what end users preferred 85% in favor of traditional mouse/keyboard.

 

Touch screens on Mobile devices are primarily there to conserve space ... touch has never been a better input process ... for example my iPhone, entering text messages is an exercise in frustration ... especially if you make a mistake or have big hands/fingers ... a simple message on a touch device can take 30 seconds vs. 3 seconds on a keyboard.

 

I don't mind change, in fact I embrace change, but NOT "change" for the sake of "change" -- there has to be some real benefit to the change.  I don't see that in Windows 8.

 

But as was pointed out early on, Windows 8 has nothing to do with what consumers want, it's all about Microsoft's need to enter the mobile market.

 

Last data check, there are now 1 Billion Windows based computers (world wide) so even if Microsoft only charged the same as Apple does for OSX ($30 - Apple doesn't do upgrades or different OSX version, one price full version, fits all) ... even if Microsoft only successfully converted 50% of their existing user base over a 2 year period and charged the same as Apple $30, that's still $15 Billion (or about $7.5 Billion in revenue per year).  That's significant revenue for Microsoft.  1/2 a year has passed and they've only sold 60 Million copies of Windows 8 (and many of those sales are still on the shelves at Best Buy and other retailers) ... and what evidence is there to suggest Windows 8 sales are going to pickup?? Dell, HP, NewEgg, and others see no such evidence and have stated so publicly.

 

Why this topic is of so much interest to me (see my other thread) is because a big part of my professional life is aimed at the Windows platforms ... I pay my yearly subscription dues to Microsoft ($3300/yr) and have done so for many many many years.  I feel let down, when Microsoft proceed on a path that my customers don't want (be it right or wrong, they don't want Windows 8) -- it doesn't promote a partnership, it's now a dictatorship.

What confuses me is that "touch screens" have been around for a while, some even support gestures ... I recall many many years ago (10+) we used a touch screen monitor when our sales guys were demonstrating our product.  It worked perfectly and I didn't have to change any code ... big win win.  But after a few years that monitor finally failed and we stopped using touch screens ... touch screens get dirty frequently and are very fragile to any liquids at all on them -- but eventually the sensitivity starts to stray and requires constant "calibration".

 

1.  Touch was merely a driver install with a touch sensitive monitor -- that was 10 years ago, hard to call it innovation (certainly not Apple's innovation)??

2.  No one (our potential clients) cared that we had "touch" (and this is Point of sale software too).

3.  It was about an 85/15 split on what end users preferred 85% in favor of traditional mouse/keyboard.

 

Touch screens on Mobile devices are primarily there to conserve space ... touch has never been a better input process ... for example my iPhone, entering text messages is an exercise in frustration ... especially if you make a mistake or have big hands/fingers ... a simple message on a touch device can take 30 seconds vs. 3 seconds on a keyboard.

 

The innovation with the iPhone and iPad was in the implementation and having useful applications. Many of the older Windows tablet machines just wanted you to use the same full desktop interface with a stylus and didn't really have any advantage beyond the novelty of it. It was clunky and the exact opposite of what we have with Windows 8 trying to use a touch interface on desktops. Apple went and designed an interface centered around touch on hardware that was easy to carry around (many of the old Windows tablets were massive in comparison, for example). Also notice how Apple hasn't tried to use the exact same iOS interface on the desktop? They may have implemented some of the same features on both, but they built them for the specific platform when they did.

 

As for typing on a touch screen, I don't find it much slower at all, and I find the touch screen works great for most apps on my iPhone. A big part of the problem with typing is that up until recently everyone was still trying to use the same plain QWERTY paradigm from desktops and laptops (and typewriters). There are some interesting looking projects out there to come up with methods better suited to touchscreens.

 

Minuum:

 

http://minuum.com/

 

Swiftkey Flow:

 

 

I suspect that there is a generational gap in play here too. Those that have grown up with touch screens and cell phones don't seem to have much trouble at all adapting. Much like those that grew up with Windows or Mac computers and the Internet don't have much trouble using them compared to their grand parents who didn't.

 

Water isn't a problem any more either if the manufacturer wants to put the effort in. The latest Sony Xperia Android phones, for example, are waterproof. I do wish more would do this.

 

The desktop not is going to disappear completely. There is still a desktop in Windows 8 and the coming Windows Blue. We will, however, have more options to complete the task we're trying to accomplish at any given moment.

 

Edit: Missed a word...

I'm not as eager to have the desktop disappear (I'm typing this on an iPhone, with my index finger, btw....) as I am to see all remaining electromechanical pieces that break and wear out -keyboards, buttons, mice, hard drives - disappear.

 

Increasingly, storage is the sole real constraint (well in some ways that's always been true).

 

Call me when 4TB SSDs are $50/a pop.

 

At that point the OS will have to change substantially, with a much cleaner, simpler memory model. Storage redundancy will need to be secure and instantaneous, no hit on performance, effortless for the user.

 

Data storage, redundancy ("security through redundancy!" Have we learned nothing from the structure of the Internet?!) and access at light speed, that will be the driver.

 

I do think MS dimly sees this, but despite all slimming efforts and innovations they're still so (necessarily) saddled with legacy principles, architecture and indeed organizational inertia that I suspect they will be the last to the party when the next big step into the future arrives.

 

It's a shame, because like FSX itself, all their work is incredibly feature-rich, light-years ahead of the competition that way. They do themselves a disservice trying to slim that down, rather than continuing to improve the ways they do information-hiding to keep it all manageable, but still available when needed.

 

That's possible; we don't need the Zyngafication of the whole software industry, we just need more savvy interface design than W8 debuted.

I suspect that there is a generational gap in play here too. Those that have grown up with touch screens and cell phones don't seem to have much trouble at all adapting.

 

Although I am definitely not a young spring chicken any more, I'll have to disagree with you and here is why ... teen deaths from texting while driving is almost equal (if not greater than in some states) than DUI.  The days I have to drive to the office are positively spooky ... I'll encounter at least 10 obviously distracted drivers weaving across the road trying to work their mobile device just one-way to work.  Clearly this isn't a good form of human interface ... the death toll is staggering.  Laws get created to fine texters (but rarely enforced) and the problem continues rampant among the younger generation.  If you step back and look at Human Interfaces from a wider perspective, clearly where we are with touch screens and mobile devices is NOT going to be our final destination ... I hope for the sake of humanity!

 

Now, add in all the people that have been injured from texting while walking ... yes, this is now another big problem.  So what's the recommendation, find a place to sit and communicate ... hey wait a minute, isn't that the home of the "desktop or laptop"?

 

And then there is the problem of these mobile devices being used in the work place for personal use ... when I arrive to work, I'll see at least 50% of the company texting away on their mobile devices with little or no regard to "real work" they are supposed to be doing.  Heck, I've gone to my local Safeway (grocery store) and had a checker make me wait while they finished texting a friend ... yes it was a youth.  I would have report this to the store manager because guess what, they were also texting away on their personal mobile device.  Overall employee productivity in the youth segment has taken a huge hit because of these mobile devices.  It's a significant problem and certainly not good for humanity and/or the human condition.

 

 

The desktop is going to disappear completely.

 

Not as long as we're all still human and many of use can't do two things at once, like text and drive, or text and walk.  Regardless of the keyboard layout or UI interaction, mobile computing is still very much a compromise.

 

Mobile has spot in human activity, but it'll never be the ONLY show in town.

 

I maybe old, but I am able to step back and see a bigger picture of where mobile computing is going and what it's doing to the human condition and I can only hope we come up with a better way.  It maybe Apple and Microsoft's vision, but it's not my vision.

I know of one rule regarding Windows, alternate releases usually are the best sellers/better quality.  Look at XP, a great OS.  Followed by Vista, a bust.   Then Windows 7, awesome OS, followed by a flop, Windows 8.   Not sure about releases before XP, but I think the same held true.

Well what matters is you share what you've learned about Windows 8 and how you accomplished getting everything to run under that OS. I did the same thing with Windows 7 and FS9 a couple years ago. My write up is in the Windows 7 forum.

 

I did explain in a reply to this thread on page 2 and page 3.

I guess not many noticed as they are so bent on their own bias against Windows 8 they don't really care.

 

The point is, other than Start8 and Fences by Stardock I have done nothing else. Just installed FSX deluxe, Acceleration and DX10.

I have most every addon, Reality XP, OPUS, ProATCX, ORBX, UT2, FSDT, EZDOK, TrackIR, etc... etc...  all work without issues related to OS.

 

My Windows 8 (desktop) is for FSX primarily, but as well photo and video editing, PC gaming(iracing,Farcry3,Rocksmith,COD,Battlefield3) and an XBMC media player.

 

FSX has never run better.

Most important of all. I know it will continue to work great !!

How do I know ?  Carbonite backup. (Worth saying again for those that missed it.)

 

No serious flightsimmer should be without it.

A very good example, about 6 weeks ago I got a very nasty piece of Malware. The type you really can't get rid of without a reinstall.

All I did is restore from a selection of mirror images, and within 4 hrs was back to a recent full working state.

FSX and all it's addons, settings, and tweaks, ready to go FLY !!

 

What could be better than this ?

 

No, I'm not suggesting people dump their Windows 7. Especially at the current price.  :-(

Just passing along the positive experience I'm having with FSX and Windows 8 desktop.

 

Cheers

Steve

Although I am definitely not a young spring chicken any more, I'll have to disagree with you and here is why ... teen deaths from texting while driving is almost equal (if not greater than in some states) than DUI.  The days I have to drive to the office are positively spooky ... I'll encounter at least 10 obviously distracted drivers weaving across the road trying to work their mobile device just one-way to work.  Clearly this isn't a good form of human interface ... the death toll is staggering.  Laws get created to fine texters (but rarely enforced) and the problem continues rampant among the younger generation.  If you step back and look at Human Interfaces from a wider perspective, clearly where we are with touch screens and mobile devices is NOT going to be our final destination ... I hope for the sake of humanity!

 

Now, add in all the people that have been injured from texting while walking ... yes, this is now another big problem.  So what's the recommendation, find a place to sit and communicate ... hey wait a minute, isn't that the home of the "desktop or laptop"?

 

And then there is the problem of these mobile devices being used in the work place for personal use ... when I arrive to work, I'll see at least 50% of the company texting away on their mobile devices with little or no regard to "real work" they are supposed to be doing.  Heck, I've gone to my local Safeway (grocery store) and had a checker make me wait while they finished texting a friend ... yes it was a youth.  I would have report this to the store manager because guess what, they were also texting away on their personal mobile device.  Overall employee productivity in the youth segment has taken a huge hit because of these mobile devices.  It's a significant problem and certainly not good for humanity and/or the human condition.

 

 

 

Not as long as we're all still human and many of use can't do two things at once, like text and drive, or text and walk.  Regardless of the keyboard layout or UI interaction, mobile computing is still very much a compromise.

 

Mobile has spot in human activity, but it'll never be the ONLY show in town.

 

I maybe old, but I am able to step back and see a bigger picture of where mobile computing is going and what it's doing to the human condition and I can only hope we come up with a better way.  It maybe Apple and Microsoft's vision, but it's not my vision.

 

 

What does texting and driving have to do with learning to use a computer interface?? Texting, drinking, shaving, doing make-up and any number of other things while driving is just plain dumb. Young adults have always had a tendency to be somewhat naive, and feel invincible to boot, in many things. That they're doing it with a new technology has little to do with how well one learns to use it. I've just about been hit many times while walking to work by middle aged or or older gentlemen yakking away on their cell phones (they often seem to be in BMW or Mercedes cars too for some reason). Touch screen phones are not meant to be used while driving period. This one area that something like voice control may be better suited.

 

What I was talking about was specifically learning to use the phone. Another analogy is watching someone hunting and pecking with one, maybe two fingers, on a desktop machine vs. someone touch typing and moving between the keyboard and mouse with ease. The people I have seen that have trouble with typing and speed on a touch screen phone tend to be using one finger to type, while those that use both thumbs can positively fly through a text message.

 

The problem with your argument about texting and walking is that a neither laptop nor desktop fit in my pocket. Sure, I might have to stop for a second while doing something on my phone, but I do have the phone with me. If you really need to sit down and type up some assembly code on your phone, you are using the wrong device (but then again, sometimes the best solution is the one presently available to you). This also goes for tablets as they are far more portable than just about all laptops, and definitely more portable than a desktop machine. It's about the right device for the right task.

 

One of the killer features of the iPhone was having a map application with you at all times. While there were desktop based solution like MapQuest and Google maps, they aren't as convenient as having one in your pocket. Smartphones before the iPhone also had maps, but they were almost always awkward to use. It wasn't long before people started adding other information to the maps, like restaurant ratings etc. that are great for travelers  This is where smartphones shine. It beats the heck out of a stack of travel books and maps like what my family used when I was a kid. I've been out with friends when we decided to go see a movie. Out comes the smartphone and in a minute or two we have tickets with assigned seats. No need to worry about getting to the theatre and wait in line, and all while having a pint or two.

 

Inappropriate use of a touch screen phones at work is not a problem with the phones or interfaces, but with the people themselves. People have always found ways to slack off at work (spending all day around the water cooler, excess smoking breaks, playing Solitaire etc.). Maybe younger generations are getting worse at it (isn't this what every generation claims?), but that is a personal/social issue, not technological or interface design. The opposite side of the coin is the older generation that refuses to learn new technologies and constantly waste time and money doing things the old fashioned way. Something I see regularly. I will agree that technology is advancing faster than society has been able to adapt, but again, this isn't a problem with the technology itself.

 

Certainly touch screen phones are not the end of the line, but they have their place and are an improvement over a keyboard and mouse in some situations. Google Glass is one possible future, though I'm not sold on it just yet.

 

It looks like missed a word in my post. I meant to say desktops will not disappear. They just aren't going to the only computer people have available to them.

I know of one rule regarding Windows, alternate releases usually are the best sellers/better quality.  Look at XP, a great OS.  Followed by Vista, a bust.   Then Windows 7, awesome OS, followed by a flop, Windows 8.   Not sure about releases before XP, but I think the same held true.

Win 3.11 win95, win98. Having said that, most people including industry and commerce went directly from win 3.11 to XP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!