I don't want to break anyones bubble, but ALL software is beta tested by its users. There isn't a piece of software out there that hasn't had at least one patch to fix issues. Flight sim developers are catering to a smaller market every day, fsx is old software, requires expensive hardware, the economy is still bad a lot of people don't have much extra money to spend. I don't have a problem paying for software that will have a handful of patches if the end product will be almost perfect. Especially if it helps a company stay afloat as opposed to closing down. We need all the developers we can get in fs.

Reading your post I feel like we will soon make our own addons and be paying royalty to 3PD.....

 

Having a bug or two been fixed on a product is one thing but buying an incomplete product is another one, who's fault is it...ours right?

 

Trust me, if we were only buying a ready to use (almost bugs free) add-on 3PD would sell finished products...they want to stay in business don't they?

 

We need all the developers we can get in fs.

 

No. We need developers who are committed to bringing quality products to the market and not ones who throw unfinished or flawed products out the door to take advantage of overly eager or naive simmers.

With all the posts I have seen in forums over the years, this one has to be right up there in the top 10 "Give me a Break" catagory.

 

Last I knew, ONE major dev changed their business model and ADVERTIZED they were going to release a beta version that users could purchase, with FULL DISCLOSURE that it was in BETA and in NO WAY was a final product.

 

I checked all their websites, forums, etc and nowhere did I see a gun popup on their pages, point to a customer, and FORCE them to buy it, did anyone else notice that?

 

Personally I think it is a great way to sell a product, as it gets immediate player feedback that a dev team would NEVER get from a small inhouse beta team, which ultimatly results in a faster release, fewer problems, better feedback, and from a customers point of view, direct involvement in said product.

 

I only wish the company I used to work for had decided to do that when I was in charge of our beta team. If a company tells you it's beta, offers you a discount buying it, listens to your input even if they don't implement your "suggestions", then they are being totally honest and the decision is YOURS.

 

Some un-named developers release a 'completed' product when they think it's finished, then for the next few months release patch after patch after patch to fix it. Me, I'd rather help with the beta than complain I bought an unfinished product, KNOWING full well it was unfinished when I bought it.

 

With all the posts I have seen in forums over the years, this one has to be right up there in the top 10 "Give me a Break" catagory.

 

Without specifics, I have to agree.

 

Scott

Personally I think it is a great way to sell a product

 

Unfortunately the history of FS addon developers asking customers to pay for a beta or early/incomplete development of a product with the promise of completing it or adding extra features at a later date is not a terribly happy one.

 

The fact is it's a flawed business model. Once they've made money from selling the incomplete "beta" "pre-release" "preview" or whatever you want to call it, there's little incentive for them to continue working on it. Most of the day one purchasers who will buy it based on pretty screenshots and a feature list will already have purchased the beta model. With bills to pay and the revenue stream from the beta version starting to dwindle it's awfully tempting for the developer to call it a finished, complete V1.0 - even if it is still incomplete, has bugs or is otherwise flawed - and move on to the next one.

 

It's perhaps not a coincidence that the most highly regarded developers who consistently release the best products - PMDG, Real Air, A2A - do not follow this business model and only release complete products that are not only fully functioning but also relatively bug free on day one.

I bought an unfinished product, KNOWING full well it was unfinished when I bought it.

More power to you, as for me I won't complain since I stop buying unfinished products, I will only buy finished products (not in beta testing anymore).

 

I have to agree with you on the fact that if a company is telling you that the product you are buying from them is a beta one and you still buy it you can't complain that the product is unfinished to your taste.

 

I am not in the business of financing 3PD so they can finished or iron out bugs on their products later, I'm not trying to be a party pooper but ain't my problem if they need cash flow, they can always ask for a loan from a bank or seek investors.

I got burned a few years ago, buying an unfinished product...That product is still unfinished at this time, despite all assurances it would be. Never again!

@ the OP

 

You perfectly described my experience with X-Plane from versions 4 thru 9. It wasn't the major version releases that were so annoying, because with those you expect lots of stuff to change. It was the endless stream of bug fixes and incremental "updates," like the drip-drip-drip of water torture, that would break features, screw-up settings and disable add-on aircraft. They caused all manner of frustration and sometimes required hours of research and tweaking to get the darn thing working again. After 10 years of this it finally dawned on me that I was caught up in one enormous and eternal beta cycle and I bailed to FS9, then to FSX, and haven't looked back. Having spent a couple of hours with XP10, what I see is another beta from Laminar and a rocky road ahead for many non-tekkie early adopters.

 

People complain about FSX, mostly about performance. It sure does have its flaws -- 32-bit and all that -- and definitely requires a rig capable of some serious heavy-lifting. But one big thing that can be said for it is that the code base is fixed, and right out of the box you have a decent, stable simulator that doesn't require constant tweaking (unless you want to) nor the ingestion of tranquilizers just to have an enjoyable flight. Your add-ons won't break with each new release because, well, it is what it is and always will be. It's evident that developers also appreciate that the platform isn't a moving target because new a/c, scenery and utilities continue to come along in droves. OTOH, X-Plane is still incomplete (by FSX standards), still changing, and the 64-bit version's performance on my system doesn't come close to that of FSX, even with complex aircraft and scenery, AS2012 and REX textures. More X-Plane updates and bug-fixes to come, I guess, and I have to believe that this is off-putting for developers. It's going to be a very long time before X-Plane stabilizes to the point where add-ons appear in multitudes like they do for FSX.

 

My use of X-Plane as an example is not to hate on it. After the first or second year it was pretty clear what I had signed-up for, and I have no ill will toward Austin Meyer, Laminar, or X-Plane users. If you like it, great, and I hope you totally enjoy your experiences with it. My point is this: "lesson learned." I won't ever buy another sim product, with the exception of PMDG's (self-explanatory), until I can scour the forums and know for sure that users have stopped discussing missing or botched essential features, bugs, etc. It's only at that point that a new addon becomes MY personal release version.

 

If it looks like a beta and acts like a beta ... you know.

 

 

I don't see how it is really 'the new way,' as I would guess it has been the same since the very first Caveman was able to sell brittle throwing rocks to the Apemen while dazzling them with fire. No doubt a few of the smarter Apemen knew they had been hoodwinked, but even larger numbers of them became fan-apes, and so the practice has persisted to this day. Fortunately there are at least a few really good developers out there who appear not to do this, or at least not so much, but we still need to be smart consumers capable of saying no. No such thing as an automatic purchase for me anymore, no matter how much enthusiasm I might have built up for it.

First of all: thanks for keeping it civilized and for not throwing developer's names into the discussion.  ^_^ I didn't specify any addons, (sorry Scott!  ^_^ ) because that would/could almost immediately make it seem I was trashing those developers or products. But that isn't really (or necessarily) the case. I mainly said that for ME personally this 'new way' doesn't work anymore.

 

I do own a 'beta product' that I am very happy with even though it's still heavily in beta: I just decided to stick with the current beta and forget about whatever is coming. I will see again what I will do when the product has been reported as being finished.

 

Another beta product I own isn't coming along as nicely as I hoped it would be. It just isn't as complete as it should be and the newest version only broke things for me so I reinstalled a previous beta and I will keep using that until the product is finished (which I am sure will happen but I honestly am beginning to doubt if it will have the features I was expecting of it...) but not every time, I think.

 

So I am not simply saying this way of releasing things is bad, period. You indeed have the option the NOT buy the add-on! There certainly are advantages but for now I am done with it because the drawbacks begin to outweigh the advantages. That's all, really.

 

I do have to say though that some developers might make it a bit more clear that their add-on is a work in progress. Finding out a product is in REAL beta only after purchasing it, IS bad!

 

P.S. Releasing patches after releasing a 'finished' product is something different than what I am talking about. I can live with a patch or two. I of course would prefer releases without bugs... Take note though that this patch releasing business hasn't been around since the 'very first caveman'. When I started using computers in the eighties and I bought a game, it would work. Period. There was NO way at ALL to get a patch for something! If things had to be dealt with, it would have to be in a version 2 that you would have to pay a full price for. Anyway, in those days the developers made sure their products worked. It wasn't until the internet became widespread that patches appeared: at first to solve totally unexpected problems, but later on the developers started to rely on this possibility and released products that they KNEW would need patching. Not good but as long as they patch things it's fine with me. One of the reasons I hardly buy games anymore nowadays is because I found out developers stop releasing patches after a short while without any remorse or guilt or apology... and that's bad.

I guess I see all of this a bit different. I have watched a couple of developers...one weather and the other ATC make amazing progress over the past few months. To me, Flight Sims are a hobby and the more you put in to it the more the enjoyment you get in return. Complain if you want, but the truth is that no matter what you do in todays hi tech world, you are a beta tester and as long as you start up your computer, tablet or phone you will continues to be a beta tester. If you think that the Flight Sim developers are in some way miss treating you, I challenge you to call or email AT&T or any of the other huge companys and ask them to patch their program so that you can use you $250.00 phone with an old TV you found in the basement!!

 

Here are just a few programs that you are a "beta tester" for:

 

FSX...You paid for it years ago and still incomplete

Nvidia Drivers...No such thing as the final release

Windows....No matter what version...no such thing as final release

.....Just fill in all your computer programs Here....... They all have patches and releases base on our inputs from using and 'beta testing'.

 

I say.. be thankful that we have some developers coming along who will listen and fix problems, in many cases, in less than 24 hours. If you think the world owes you a living and perfect software then, you are never going to be satisfied....just not going to happen.

All points are very well discussed. IT still comes down to the fact that you as a consumer rule the system. But to get all consumers to agree and act exactly the same is just wishful thinking, and I think we can all appreciate that point. The only thing you have control over is what YOU purchase.

 

The thought that patches are a phenomenon that is somewhat new in software is sort of correct as the internet made it easier for developers to fix their products on the fly. But that same internet led to a more informed and prejudicial consumer with forums like this. We can now arm ourselves with unabashed user reviews before we spend our money, so the door swings both ways so to speak.

 

Same as always...buyer beware. Great discussion. Thanks

I stopped paying for things that weren't complete when i bought the Airsimmer many years ago on a promise that the extended version was just around the corner and well it never turned up and many people lost $30+ on something that just didn't do anything. I don't mind if an honest developer is so short of money or similar that they have to release their product to raise some cash to finish it, what is wrong is when developers get that cash and then run off with it and unfortunately when you buy into that sort of thing your completely exposed to the risk of losing your money, if you know your buying into a beta product then maybe it's a good idea to treat it as such.

Yes it's best to apply Buyer Beware and judge every case on it's merit.

 

I know this discussion has avoided naming developers, but as an example of a good case, where I completely trust the developer and was (and still am) happy to have bought into the incomplete project; QualityWings 146 collection for FSX.     The initial release of the Avros was a little buggy but the Service Pack made the aircraft almost perfect for me.     And although it did not come with the Bae 146 versions (only the Avro versions), it is clear from their Facebook page and other progress shots that they are working really hard to complete the 146 versions for FSX.

 

I'm happy to have bought into that 'staggered development' and have 100% trust in the developer.

 

But of course, we all know of other cases where we bought in, on a promise, that was not then delivered.   A certain promise of a VC for a Dutch airliner comes to mind for that one!