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eurowing

cross 25 miles NE of VOR at 12000?

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hello,

 

hope someone can help. when I fly this STAR http://imageserver.fltplan.com/merge/merge1304/Single/00373BARET.PDF into KSAN there is a crossing restriction I am not sure how to handle in the MD-11.

 

it says to expect to cross 25 miles NE of PGY at 12,000 (on the TNP transition). I went through the manual to see how to go about that but didn't find anything.

 

in the NGX you can create a user waypoint with only the DME from the VOR. but it seems you have to know the radial, too, when you try that in the MD-11. unless I have missed something.

 

does anyone know a good way to do this?

 

thanks!


Denis Kosbeck

KPHX

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hello,

 

hope someone can help. when I fly this STAR http://imageserver.fltplan.com/merge/merge1304/Single/00373BARET.PDF into KSAN there is a crossing restriction I am not sure how to handle in the MD-11.

 

it says to expect to cross 25 miles NE of PGY at 12,000 (on the TNP transition). I went through the manual to see how to go about that but didn't find anything.

 

in the NGX you can create a user waypoint with only the DME from the VOR. but it seems you have to know the radial, too, when you try that in the MD-11. unless I have missed something.

 

does anyone know a good way to do this?

 

thanks!

Denis

 

I would add a waypoint between KARRO and IFEHI at 27 miles from KARRO such as KARRO/190/27 and enter the possible 12000 contraint at that PDB01. Other than that I don't see anyway to do it. I don't know if that 12000 is a hard contraint or not. Some of the FAA charts are starting to say expect to cross blah at blah where before the restriction and contraints were definite with under or overlines or both. CAMRN into to KJFK used to be 250 at 11000 with both under and overlines. Now the chart says expect to cross at 11000. Maybe Kyle Rodgers knows what is going on. I don't have a clue.

 

Michael Cubine


Michael Cubine
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The FIX page will offer the info you require, but you will need to use a little trial and error. As you can see, the inbound radial of the STAR to PGY is 043. If you enter PGY into the FIX page, then enter 040, 039 or 037 etc into the DNTKFX field it will tell you the distance from your PPOS to where your planned route intercepts this radial. Compare this to the RAD/DIST field, and subtract the difference. You may have to try a few different radial entries, but you should find somewhere close enough to what you need. Then simply enter that radial as a 24nm PBD waypoint so you can add an altitude restraint as required.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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If you your flight plan goes to PGY from the northeast, then just add an along track waypoint (FMS 100.1).

 

If you are expected to be at that exact point in space, then just add a Place/Bearing/Distance waypoint, "25 miles NE of PGY" is entered as PGY/45/25 (FMS 100.3). Once it is in you can added the vertical constraint.

 

If, as is more likely, it is just a guidence, then you would use the fix page (FMS 40.8) and enter PGY. It will show up one you display, while the fix pages shows the current predictions. If you also give the radial and distance as 45/25, it will show where that line intercepts your flight path and calculate the expected altitude at that point.


Paul Smith.

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does anyone know a good way to do this?

 

As a heads up for the future:

If it says "expect," then 90% of the time, you're going to be told exactly that instruction.  In this case, however, it's really somewhat of a backup.

 

Now, I have to say that this is often up to controller preference, but because it's not an exact point in space (it's not tied to an exact radial/distance, or fix), controllers will not generally issue this exact instruction.  I just asked my contact from SoCal TRACON (who would issue these instructions) and he said that the controller would simply say "descend and maintain 12,000," and time it such that the aircraft would be at approximately 12,000 by about 25nm NE of the VORTAC.  He did say that a controller may issue it in a tight spot to put the responsibility of the pilot, but again, since the exact point is vague (no exact radial/distance, or fix), it's really just there for descent planning.

 

In order to get that into your FMS, there is honestly no good way.  The responses above do mention ways that you could do it, but those ways are entering a point into your flight plan that does not exist.  Adding PGY/45/25 would mean that you will not track properly between KARRO and IFEHI.  If you're looking for precision, you would want IFEHI/010/4.  The total track distance between that point and PGI is 25nm (the straightline distance will be slightly off, but it's close enough).  In the end, I'd probably just throw the crossing restriction on IFEHI at 11,000.  This doesn't require you to add a pseudo-fix and an associated crossing restriction, while still putting you at 25nm NE of PGI at about 12,000 (just make sure you only roll your MCP ALT value down to whatever the controller clears you to).

 
For what it's worth, the MD-11 is capable of the LYNDI, which provides better altitude information for the same arrival fixes.  In any case where you see RNAV at the procedure, it's better to file/fly that over non-RNAV STARs (for the MD-11).  There's an associated benefit for optimal descent profiles, you don't need to do anything extra to make them work, and they are often easier for controllers to work with.

 

 

 


Maybe Kyle Rodgers knows what is going on. I don't have a clue.

 

haha - thanks for the vote of confidence!


Kyle Rodgers

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thanks for the responses, guys.

 

I actually got this restriction on vatsim ("cross 25 miles NE of PGY at 12,000), but I guess that is not real life procedure. seems even vatsim is not perfect LOL


Denis Kosbeck

KPHX

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I actually got this restriction on vatsim ("cross 25 miles NE of PGY at 12,000), but I guess that is not real life procedure. seems even vatsim is not perfect LOL

 

Read through what I wrote again above.  :wink:

Part of it is controller preference.  It is 100% valid to issue an instruction like that (it is never unrealistic to issue something that is on the chart), but many controllers realize the difficulty this places on the crew, so they don't.  It would not be unrealistic for a VATSIM controller to issue that instruction.


Kyle Rodgers

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And of course, the good thing about vatsim is, if you can't/don't want to do that specific (and in this case fairly complicated) instruction, there's always the word "unable" (it'd also be nice to offer a different suggestion that you know you can do, such as expediting decent as fast as possible, or saying that you should be able to make that altitude in x miles, or before [place/waypoint])


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