Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Fatback

Busting the 250kt Speed Restriction

Recommended Posts

 

 


This is a huge simism.  Of course, this depends on where you are, but in the United States this restriction is horribly misunderstood in the sim hobby (and occasionally real world, as well).

Kyle,

 

I knew you'd make this reply as you've often commented on it, quite correctly.  I agree with you, it's not a rule that can never be broken.  But in this case this is not what the OP was asking.  He is flying a 744 at light weight and the FMC has set the speed restriction by default in the flight plan.  So it's actually an FMS speed restriction he's asking about, and the sim's attempt to maintain it, not the regulatory one.


ki9cAAb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 


He is flying a 744 at light weight and the FMC has set the speed restriction by default in the flight plan.  So it's actually an FMS speed restriction he's asking about, and the sim's attempt to maintain it, not the regulatory one.

 

It wasn't really clear either way, to me, and the next post down also referenced crews "asking for it," so I figured I'd chime in just in case.  I can see how you're interpreting it now.  Makes sense.


Kyle Rodgers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This was all duplicated over on the main FSX forum. Bottom line, don't sweat over a few knots either side of your target IAS, especially when you are flying through virtual air.

 

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/407141-250kt-under-10k-restriction-any-rw-controllers-out-there/#entry2661619

 

Kyle, I wish every flight simmer (and so called hardcore Virtual airline) could read your post.


Rob Prest

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The controller  also knows your aircraft type, in 10 years of flying the DC10 i've never had to request permission in any airspace world wide. Pilot wise, you should intervene any time the aircraft is doing something you don't like. This happens in the GV sometimes, more so when slowing before 10,000.  Vert speed and speed hold is a good fix to keep a light jet from getting away from you. + 5 knots is not a big deal as on most planes the controller doesn't know your indicated. Routinely im asked my current indicated or mach when they are dealing with spacing issues. when you are alot faster than everyone else, they will figure it out. Keep in mind that ADS can send your speed and other info to the controller.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 


Kyle, I wish every flight simmer (and so called hardcore Virtual airline) could read your post.

 

Thanks!  Yeah, there's definitely a reason I shy away from VAs.  Heck, I even got fussed at by a controller, and had to explain to him the concept of the effects of wind on groundspeed (and the fact that the reg references indicated, while he sees ground), on a particularly windy day coming into MEM.

 

Hopefully the few people who see the posts here will correct others, and it'll slowly become more common knowledge.


Kyle Rodgers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here endeth the lesson & well put!

 

I wish this could be tattooed onto the inside of every new online ATC Controllers skull (especially those with the squeaky hoarse voices & acne spots)


Steve Bell

 

"Wise men talk because they have something to say.  Fools talk because they have to say something." - Plato (latterly attributed to Saul Bellow)

 

The most useful tool on the AVSIM Fora ... 'Mark forum as read'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hopefully the few people who see the posts here will correct others, and it'll slowly become more common knowledge.

Seeing as how you are so modest, I took the liberty of making your most excellent summary into a new "Tutorial" article:

http://forum.avsim.net/tutorials/article/92-busting-the-250kt-speed-restriction/

:ph34r:


Fr. Bill    

AOPA Member: 07141481 AARP Member: 3209010556

Interests: Gauge Programming - 3d Modeling for Milviz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 


Seeing as how you are so modest

 

Haha - I think modest might be slightly marring the term when used to describe me, but thanks!  That's actually really cool.


Kyle Rodgers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 


I took the liberty of making your most excellent summary into a new "Tutorial" article

 

Great move!  Wish that would happen more often here on Avsim.  


Frank Patton
MSI Z490 WiFi MOB;  i7 10700k Comet Lake 3.8 Ghz CPU; Ripjaws 32 gb DDR4 3600; ASUS GTX 1070 TI Turbo 8GB; MasterCase H500M; Corsair H100i Pro cooler; Corsair RMX850X PSU; ASUS VG289 4K 27"; Honeycomb Alpha Yoke A+.  Former USAF meteorologist & ground weather school instructor; AOPA Member #07379126 
                        There is no limit to what a man can do or where he can go if he doesn’t mind who gets the credit! - Benjamin Jowett

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a huge simism.  Of course, this depends on where you are, but in the United States this restriction is horribly misunderstood in the sim hobby (and occasionally real world, as well).

 

Most people stop reading at FAR 91.117a, which most people summarize as "no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots."  Unfortunately for everyone else reading their simple quote, they miss the first part of that sentence - "unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator" - and subparts b, c and d.

 

Subpart b limits speeds around the floor airspace of fields in C and D airspace, subject to ATC approval.  Not often hugely relevant to a 744.

 

Subpart c is a similar limitation under B airspace and VFR corridors.  Not often hugely relevant to a 744.

 

Subpart d, however, is the big hitter:

"If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed."  That's all that needs to be said.  Done.  Unfortunately, being the last line in the reg, people don't often read that far.

 

Now, as I know some will come in here from all walks of life saying "you have to request it from ATC," I'll head it off by saying that in the United States, this is not true.  If you hear it on LiveATC, it is not correct procedure.  Even the rules ATC follow have a note to the controller stating that aircraft complying with any part of 91.117 are expected to comply without reporting.

 

 

 

TL;DR:

The 744 is not subject to the 250/10 "Rule," provided it operates at the published (which will be displayed on the FMC Climb Page) minimum safe airspeed.

Very well worded and thought out post. Thank you. Just a little historical perspective. This rule was implemented following a mid-air collision on Dec 17 1960 between a TWA Constellation and a UAL DC-8 over Brooklyn NY and was a logical step in allowing safe operations in crowded air corridors between the piston airliners of the day and the newly introduced jetliners, the two having obviously completely different flight parameters. Regards

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great move!  Wish that would happen more often here on Avsim.  

I have a "magic button" that allows me to quickly "Promote" any post into a Tutorial, but...

 

...since I cannot possibly read every post in every thread in every forum, there is without doubt some excellent stuff that's being missed.

 

I just wish that folks who do take the time to research and document stuff like this would go ahead and submit it to the Tutorial section themselves. B)


Fr. Bill    

AOPA Member: 07141481 AARP Member: 3209010556

Interests: Gauge Programming - 3d Modeling for Milviz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bill,

Is there any maximum length of a tutorial?

Cheers, Richard


Cheers, Richard

Intel Core i7-7700K @ 4.2 GHz, 16 GB memory, 1 TB SSD, GTX 1080 Ti, 28" 4K display

Win10-64, P3Dv5, PMDG 748 & 777, Milviz KA350i, ASP3D, vPilot, Navigraph, PFPX, ChasePlane, Orbx 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bill,

Is there any maximum length of a tutorial?

Cheers, Richard

None that I'm aware of, although if one is very, very long, it would be best to break it into more easily digested parts.


Fr. Bill    

AOPA Member: 07141481 AARP Member: 3209010556

Interests: Gauge Programming - 3d Modeling for Milviz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Tom Allensworth,
    Founder of AVSIM Online


  • Flight Simulation's Premier Resource!

    AVSIM is a free service to the flight simulation community. AVSIM is staffed completely by volunteers and all funds donated to AVSIM go directly back to supporting the community. Your donation here helps to pay our bandwidth costs, emergency funding, and other general costs that crop up from time to time. Thank you for your support!

    Click here for more information and to see all donations year to date.
  • Donation Goals

    AVSIM's 2020 Fundraising Goal

    Donate to our annual general fundraising goal. This donation keeps our doors open and providing you service 24 x 7 x 365. Your donation here helps to pay our bandwidth costs, emergency funding, and other general costs that crop up from time to time. We reset this goal every new year for the following year's goal.


    39%
    $9,960.00 of $25,000.00 Donate Now
×
×
  • Create New...