Piracy and Flight Sims.

[Guest wathomas777]

Yes, I know, you're thinking not another piracy thread, but I really would like some answers on this.How come the flight sim community is so absolutely anal about piracy, suspected piracy, copyright, and etc?I'm not just talking about commercial products. Any person who has been in this hobby since around FS5 knows exactly what I am talking about.When BAO released Flight Shop, there was an explosion of freeware planes, and panels for flight simulator that had not been around before. And, before you could say "download" there were threads about how so and so had "pirated" their plane and how "so and so" had pirated their gauge.In some cases, a developer had intentionally swiped a guage or a piece of a panel. In others, the software publisher was completely unaware of the act, insisting that they only published what was provided by the developer. Good companies have been literally "destroyed" by the zealous pirate hunters, even when that company has tried to compensate the "victims" in good faith. For years, debates have been fueled. Screenshots passed, and TREMENDOUS energies levied to destroy "the pirate". Lawsuits and threats have been levied outlining "damages" that are non-monetary in nature.And in this war, there have been many casualties.Consider the fine replacement textures that Cas Stevens had provided for the default 737, 777, and 747 in FS2002. All it took was one accuser to drag Cas' name through the mud and claim that he ripped off some textures. It was later discovered that the claim was baseless, but the damage had been done. Cas' name had been tainted, and the amount of seething hatred that erupted from these forums had soured him for good. Too bad too, I was anticipating his textures for the Dash-8's. But they won't be around.I have seen licenses for use for FREEWARE that indicates that it takes written permission, a blood sample, and the first born child of a person simply to repaint a model. Too bad. My dad worked for Eastern. I would love to have painted a model for him and given him a tribute. In many cases, I can't, even if I recognize the copyright of each and every 20 people involved in the model, I still am out of luck. (Did I forget to mention it's freeware?)Threats of lawsuits and closing down websites would often pursue anyone who wittingly or unwittingly contained files that was considered "illicit".The height of this nonsense would climax during the fueled discussions that would erupt from the elitists who owned the professional version when someone who owned "standard" would ask about getting guages for a 'professional version only' panel. Instead of helping a person find an alternate gauge, or tell them to download the FS2000 patch. It was much easier to blast the offender on a 20 person deep thread on how this guy "should have bought professional edition" or some other such crap.Didn't matter that the Microsoft patch for FS2000 was readily available and contained 90% of the gauges needed. Any wetnose who dared asked that question was threatened by the community, accused of piracy of the highest degree, and pratically drummed out on their butts!Which brings me to my point. What in God's name has made the average simmer so darn self righteous? Does the average Flight Simulator enthusiest, always drive the speed limit, never run a red light, never lie on their taxes, never lie to get out of trouble? Has the average Flight Simmmer ever bent the FAA regulations when flying? No? Does the average Flight Simulator owner live such an outstanding life that they can afford to live in glass houses? How Many ******* Christs do we have in our midst that find it so easy to pass judgement before the facts are laid out?Some of the actions from our fellow simmers would make the RIAA (known for going to extremes) look tame.I know I will get flamed from many of you, and it is you that I am telling to lighten up. Is it possible, in our hobby, for some of us to be against piracy, but also feel that it is mainly the actions of those who are so fanatical about eliminating it, that are ruining this hobby for the rest of us?It's all about power guys. We love to wield the big stick. Thus when some snot nosed kid starts talkin about "warez" or some poor schmuck comes in asking for (GASP!!) a gauge, the character assasinations begin. The beatings have begun! The line forms here.THAT folks is the danger we face. Like Ahab, and his obsessive search for Moby Dick, we are in danger of ruining our own hobbies because we are so uncivil to each other. And like Ahab, it wasn't Moby Dick himself that led to Ahab's fall, it was the hunt for the whale that brought about the destruction.Is the casual pirate worth all that? Some of you think so. Some of you will not rest until every single stinking pirate is nailed to a wall and exposed for the thief that he is. It is this mentality that forces us to deal with over the top and expensive anti-piracy methods. It is this mentality that seems to give some companies the right to question how I use my computer. They may not "know" who I am, but they sure know when I do something to my computer.Guess what. Crime, in some form, is the price we pay for a free society. We are able to shop in Wal-Mart without getting stripped search on the way out, because we live in a "free" society. We value our privacy, and in such, we pay for it. Does that mean I'm for piracy, No, I'm against it. But I also know that the majority of pirates are not even in the same demographic that appeals to flight simulation.I don't condone piracy in anyway. But I have also been around this hobby to know, that it's the "cure" that is killing the patient, not the "disease".My .02 worth

[Guest]

:(http://forums.avsim.com/user_files/23438.gif

[BladeLWS 0]

Well... Someone finally said what needed to be said for so long... I for one would like to thankyou for posting this. People my finally stop acting like bickering 5 year olds fighting over the toy choo-choo. Tisk Tisk

[Christopher Low 5,332]

Well done for an honest (and accurate) statement. A lot of people need to lighten up in this flight simulation business. Some have very good reason to be critical, but others are just taking the ####.Chris Low,ENGLAND.

[Guest P3_Super_Bee]

Well Said. Right on the money.

:-outta

http://www.flightsimnetwork.com/dcforum/User_files/3e72a43942b48d2b.jpg

There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness".- unknown

"My daddy gives me up, to fight for you"- a US Military Members Child

[Guest]

>How come the flight sim community is so absolutely anal about>piracy, suspected piracy, copyright, and etc?>The flightsim community is one of THE most responsible when it comes to piracy, by which I mean zero-tollerance.>For years, debates have been fueled. Screenshots passed, and>TREMENDOUS energies levied to destroy "the pirate". Lawsuits>and threats have been levied outlining "damages" that are>non-monetary in nature.>One needs to start at the core. Leave a small digression go unpunished and next time a large one will be seen as only a small step up and 'not so bad anyway' so why bother?>I have seen licenses for use for FREEWARE that indicates that>it takes written permission, a blood sample, and the first>born child of a person simply to repaint a model. Too bad. >My dad worked for Eastern. I would love to have painted a>model for him and given him a tribute. In many cases, I>can't, even if I recognize the copyright of each and every 20>people involved in the model, I still am out of luck. (Did I>forget to mention it's freeware?)>Maybe some freeware designers take their licenses too far, but I can see their point.They constantly see their works being taken by others and distributed with any credits and copyright notices removed. Some have after that been accused of stealing the product and releasing it under their own name even...For a lot of freeware designers there is a dream of one day being hired by a commercial group or company. Your freeware is your businesscard and resume in that. As such it's important and should be protected.>The height of this nonsense would climax during the fueled>discussions that would erupt from the elitists who owned the>professional version when someone who owned "standard" would>ask about getting guages for a 'professional version only'>panel. Instead of helping a person find an alternate gauge,>or tell them to download the FS2000 patch. It was much easier>to blast the offender on a 20 person deep thread on how this>guy "should have bought professional edition" or some other>such crap.>So you're advocating people stealing from Microsoft in order to get around their decision to not buy the Pro version?Because publishing those gauges online (as several sites have done, including respected ones) IS software piracy and thus theft.If people want those gauges they have to buy the Pro version. Most of these people don't even WANT an alternative even if there is one.>Didn't matter that the Microsoft patch for FS2000 was readily>available and contained 90% of the gauges needed. Any wetnose>who dared asked that question was threatened by the community,>accused of piracy of the highest degree, and pratically>drummed out on their butts!>It also contained a license agreement that precluded the use with any product except FS2000 Pro for which it was released!>Which brings me to my point. What in God's name has made the>average simmer so darn self righteous? Does the average>Flight Simulator enthusiest, always drive the speed limit,>never run a red light, never lie on their taxes, never lie to>get out of trouble? Has the average Flight Simmmer ever bent>the FAA regulations when flying? No? speedlimit? Usuallyred lights? always.taxes? alwaysFAA? nothing to do with them.I don't break the law, inless not breaking it is worse than breaking it (for example if I keep to the limit I'll be rammed from behind).>I know I will get flamed from many of you, and it is you that>I am telling to lighten up. >You're telling us that casual piracy is OK, which it is NOT.>Is it possible, in our hobby, for some of us to be against>piracy, but also feel that it is mainly the actions of those>who are so fanatical about eliminating it, that are ruining>this hobby for the rest of us?>It's ruining it only for the (prospective) pirates, and I for one won't miss them (in fact, I'd rather see them gone).>Is the casual pirate worth all that? Some of you think so. >Some of you will not rest until every single stinking pirate>is nailed to a wall and exposed for the thief that he is. It>is this mentality that forces us to deal with over the top and>expensive anti-piracy methods. It is this mentality that>seems to give some companies the right to question how I use>my computer. They may not "know" who I am, but they sure know>when I do something to my computer.>Today's casual pirate is tomorrow's reseller of pirated software.Too many people (especially the younger generation) have no concept of ownership (except of course that they know exceptionally well what belongs to them, which is everything).That's got to be stopped before it destroys the community, not people guarding against it!>Guess what. Crime, in some form, is the price we pay for a>free society. We are able to shop in Wal-Mart without getting>stripped search on the way out, because we live in a "free">society. We value our privacy, and in such, we pay for it. No, you don't pay for it.The person you steal from pays for it! And in this market that person is me (and the other honest users) and I won't sit idle while you rob my bank.

[Guest Id Rather Be Flying]

YES YES & YES!!!Thanks for the GREAT WRITEUP!I am sick and tired of all the Yo Righteous Holier than thou's for my whole life.It's like the mother and father that beat me when I was a kid for being a kid and went to church every Sunday!The only BAD thing I can see people arguing is that SOME people don't live in a free society and LIKE being told every little thing to do.Actually some people can't think for themselves and believe it's ok to just walk around repeating what everyone else told them is right!

[Guest wathomas777]

>The flightsim community is one of THE most responsible when it>comes to piracy, by which I mean zero-tollerance.Which would be ok, if the "community" were always right, but how many times has it been "wrong"? How many times has it gone on a witch hunt armed with only here say and rumor? >>One needs to start at the core. Leave a small digression go>unpunished and next time a large one will be seen as only a>small step up and 'not so bad anyway' so why bother?Who made you judge jury and executioner? If you are truly concerned about piracy, and have SOME EVIDENCE, then turn the offender in and let our officials prosecute. Any thing else is vigilante justice at best, and mob rules at worse.>Maybe some freeware designers take their licenses too far, but>I can see their point.>They constantly see their works being taken by others and>distributed with any credits and copyright notices removed.>Some have after that been accused of stealing the product and>releasing it under their own name even...>For a lot of freeware designers there is a dream of one day>being hired by a commercial group or company. Your freeware is>your businesscard and resume in that. As such it's important>and should be protected.First of all, no one is going to be hired just on the files themselves. The REAL developer will have the source files used to create the model and other evidence that he is the real developer. Plus that does not excuse a developer to lobby charges of theft unless it is founded in evidence. In some cases, theft has occurred. In MOST cases, it is a case of pure ignorance. Yet the punishment is the same. Hey, I got a plan, lets execute all those who are suspected of murder, that way we can make sure that we get ALL the murderers as well.>.>>>So you're advocating people stealing from Microsoft in order>to get around their decision to not buy the Pro version?>Because publishing those gauges online (as several sites have>done, including respected ones) IS software piracy and thus>theft.>If people want those gauges they have to buy the Pro version.>Most of these people don't even WANT an alternative even if>there is one.>>Didn't matter that the Microsoft patch for FS2000 was>readily>>available and contained 90% of the gauges needed. Any>wetnose>>who dared asked that question was threatened by the>community,>>accused of piracy of the highest degree, and pratically>>drummed out on their butts!>>>It also contained a license agreement that precluded the use>with any product except FS2000 Pro for which it was released!Read any good EULA's lately? I think you will find that when people install an operating system on more than one system, or FS on more than one system, even if it is theirs, they are pirating as well. Yet I don't see the torches and pitchforks come out for that. The truth is, the Piracy Hunters are quick to see other's piracy, but turn a blind eye to their own. How many Piracy hunters have any MP3's that they don't have the album for? How many repaints of an airliner contain the copyright of the logos that are being used? Is using the patch for gauges in FS2002 a violation of copyright? Probably. But speeding is a crime that we all commit everyday to. The copyright limitations are in place to have a means to prosecute the "heinous" offenders. Microsoft has very little care for the little fish who suplements his FS2002 experience with an FS2000 pro patch. Yet if our Friends from Papa Tango were to develop another piece of mung, with Microsoft copyrighted material, they would be shut down.>Which brings me to my point. What in God's name has made>the>>average simmer so darn self righteous? Does the average>>Flight Simulator enthusiest, always drive the speed limit,>>never run a red light, never lie on their taxes, never lie>to>>get out of trouble? Has the average Flight Simmmer ever>bent>>the FAA regulations when flying? No? >speedlimit? Usually>red lights? always.>taxes? always>FAA? nothing to do with them.>I don't break the law, inless not breaking it is worse than>breaking it (for example if I keep to the limit I'll be rammed>from behind).Easy to justify breaking laws when it is YOU doing it. Officer, I can't travel the speed limit because I will get "rammed" is just as lame an excuse as I am not going to spend an extra $20 bucks for Flight Simulator Pro just for 3 gauges.>>I know I will get flamed from many of you, and it is you>that>>I am telling to lighten up. >>>You're telling us that casual piracy is OK, which it is NOT.No I am not, and you make my point below perfectly. Piracy is breaking the law, plain and simple. So is speeding, litering, jaywalking. What I am saying, is that it is wrong to paint your life in "shades of grey" in all areas, but then maintain a black and white view of piracy. Remember Prohibition? At one time it was against the law to drink. It was illegal. But if you remember history, the crime, the costs, and overall hassles that grew from "that law" were so great that the cost of enforcing the law, far outweighed the benefits of the law itself.The music industry is in a similar jam. They are so concerned with protecting their copyrights, that they are turning a blind eye to the consumer. Is file sharing on Kaaza wrong. You bet your sweet bippy it is. But it is so common because of the recording industry's failure to focus on the needs of the customer. Ever since the recording industry did away with "singles", The consumer has had to purchase a $15 to $18 dollar CD just to get one song. Hmm, that sounds familiar.>>Is it possible, in our hobby, for some of us to be against>>piracy, but also feel that it is mainly the actions of those>>who are so fanatical about eliminating it, that are ruining>>this hobby for the rest of us?>>>It's ruining it only for the (prospective) pirates, and I for>one won't miss them (in fact, I'd rather see them gone).Oh really. Ask Cas Stephens how much of a warm and fuzzy he has about the flight sim community after being wrongly accused of piracy. Yeah. He's feeling peachy. And how about the folks who have had to hassle with all the "anti-piracy" protection. CD-Keys, Dongles, CD's in drives, Activation keys. Protected disks.I for one would love to be able to backup my Flight Sim disks, but am unable to. I hate piracy. But I don't assume that everyone out there is a pirate in-waiting either. You wouldn't dare allow yourself to be pat searched at Wal-Mart as a part of their "anti-shoplifting" program, yet you will go through all sorts of inconvenience from waiting several days for "activation keys" to be e-mailed, to having to digout CD-Keys during each install, to not being able to even make a backup of your CD's.Many of you righteous ones go to the very "warez" sites you preach against so that you can download an illegal reversed engineered copy of the .exe so that you don't have to put your original CD in the drive. What's that I smell, Hypocricy?>>Is the casual pirate worth all that? Some of you think so. >>Some of you will not rest until every single stinking pirate>>is nailed to a wall and exposed for the thief that he is. >It>>is this mentality that forces us to deal with over the top>and>>expensive anti-piracy methods. It is this mentality that>>seems to give some companies the right to question how I use>>my computer. They may not "know" who I am, but they sure>know>>when I do something to my computer.>>>Today's casual pirate is tomorrow's reseller of pirated>software.>Too many people (especially the younger generation) have no>concept of ownership (except of course that they know>exceptionally well what belongs to them, which is>everything).>That's got to be stopped before it destroys the community, not>people guarding against it!Oh, so today's dope smoker is tomorrows heroin dealer. Is that what your saying? Today's casual drinker is tomorrows alcoholic? I was a NOT-SO casual pirate, and I thank you, but I do not have any more pirated software in my stable, and have not had any for over 18 years.The only place where the "reselling" of pirated software takes place on any significant level is in burgeoning third world countries and Asia where copyright laws of either weak or non-existant. When was the last time you were able to go in a store, or ebay and purchase "pirated" software. Hell, it is so available, that most people would laugh at you if you even TRIED to sell it. So I doubt if little Johnny 13 year old pirate is gonna open a Piratz-R-US store anytime in the near future. >>>Guess what. Crime, in some form, is the price we pay for a>>free society. We are able to shop in Wal-Mart without>getting>>stripped search on the way out, because we live in a "free">>society. We value our privacy, and in such, we pay for it.>No, you don't pay for it.>The person you steal from pays for it! And in this market that>person is me (and the other honest users) and I won't sit idle>while you rob my bank.>Oh look here, You've made my point exactly. Since I obviously don't agree with your views, you have now labeled me a thief. You have even called me dishonest. Thank you for proving my point so eloquently. Yes, I WAS a pirate many many years ago, but have since erased all my copyrighted software, movies, and music.But, you, knowing nothing about me, except that perhaps I feel that the overzealous piracy witch hunts done by the community does more harm than good, you have accused me of being a thief. With no due process, With no evidence, with No case. Thank you for making my point. And the next time you want to call me a thief with no evidence and no due process, perhaps you should look at laws concerning libel. This folks is EXACTLY what I am talking about. The need to carry the big stick, the need to accuse those who think differently than you of a crime. That is what is destroying our community. I thought we all shared a love of flight simulation, not of amatuer litigation. At least we all know where our next round of trial lawyers will come from (God help us all (grin!!!))

[Guest Id Rather Be Flying]

Along with Elrond for speaker, I vote for wathomas777 as well. WELL done and BRAVO! I am still ROFLMAO on this: "Yet I don't see the torches and pitchforks come out for that."Awesome work and keep it up but unfortunately, the effect that you seek may just be the people who will want to keep you quiet.It is AMAZING that there is NO WAY to stop either side of these debates but I am from the school if it ain't hurting you then leave em alone!! I got better things to do then sit next to my living room window to see what the neighbors are arguing about now!That's called the nosey neighbor and I always hated the one that lived next to me when I was a kid and on some level I was glad when she was gone since she accomplished NOTHING AT ALL but intruding on my privacy!

[Guest Deeks]

Thank you wathomas777 for clearly voicing the words I have not had the time to put to paper.

[Guest]

You may stop this individual, but you can't stop them all...

[Azapata87 173]

hi,Well I have to say I'm on Wathomas777's side on this one. Great write up wathomas777!!! I couldent agree more!!! :-)Andrew

[Guest Steve Small]

>Actually some people can't think for themselves and believe>it's ok to just walk around repeating what everyone else told>them is right!There certainly is an element of truth in that. The 'pile-on/me too' crowd with nothing invested, too much free time, and usually anonymity. Some seem to miss the point those of us who are trying to minimise the problem are arguing. Likely it is deliberate obsfucation, however, for the record :1. No-one is on a crusade; 2. nobody is after them (a Hall of Shame equivalent); and3. no developer I know wants to hound or "nail hides" (the theives) to a tasteless wall of shame as someone said recently.We don't care who they are, because to us, they are non-persons.Those of us who are objecting to piracy (with the limited means we have available) only seek to disempower those who would steal. Rendering them irrelevant is all we aim for. This is not The Soprano's and we could care less who they are. Or, were.The point is we won't work to bring them pleasure. It's just healthier (for us) to have them off the radar just like some customers who are not able to be civil, or pleasant, who we simply let go.Life's too short. This is meant to be fun. We like having fun too, remember.Rgds,.....Steve SmallCanberra, Australiahttp://www.fsd-international.com/team/Steve_signature.gif

[Guest wathomas777]

I really think the difference is that there is that in this community, piracy is something that people take personally. It's a matter of pride. Now let me explain this for a sec so that I don't get deluged.Most developers, are not out there developing planes, panels, and addons simply for their own use. They get something out of it. It may not be monetary, but the get something.The freeware developer gets the praise from his peers. The Kudo's, the pride, the "love". When a fellow freeware developer takes that creation and makes it his own, he's stealing the guys "love" and that hurts baby. And it is especially bad when a payware developer does it, because not only does he steal the developers thunder, but then goes on to make money on it. Talk about a double dose of "up yours"At least that is what the freeware developer feels. Thus, he turns to his only outlet and cries foul to the community and the Flame wars begin.Every developer takes an act of piracy as if it were directed towards them personally. And I can understand that feeling. Many payware developers today are the freeware developers of yesterday. Thus the same feelings of hurt and betrayal apply. So now, when they have some capital, they decide to incorporate very elaborate anti-piracy means to prevent that. The same holds true about the FS PRO vs FS STANDARD debate. The ownerr of the Pro version (most likely) purchased it for the feeling of "love" and acceptance within the community. I purchased FS2000 pro because Seattle was offered as a High Detailed city in FS2000 pro only. That was my "love". The features in FS2002 for me, didn't really convince me to buy Pro, since I had all the planes from FS2000 except the Beech Baron. But, when some snot nosed kid comes in and asks for the Beech Baron that we paid good money for, we take it personally and launch into the guy. And finally, look at the whole thing regarding the beta testers. Right now for the last several weeks, the FS2004 beta testers have gotten ALL THE LOVE. They have been the center of attention since the NDA has been lifted. Not only did they get a free peek of the upcoming release, but they have been playing it now for the last three weeks.And as all of us "regulars" beg at their tables for their scraps of food, is it any wonder why some folks might want to fire up kaaza and download a "preview" for ourselves, and pose as one of the "elite"? I mean, here's a guy who says to himself. "I'm buying the first day that it comes out. I've already pre purchased it from AVSIM, so what's wrong with a little preview? Also, I can use the CD crack so I can protect my valuable investment."Remember guys. In the flight sim community, it's all about acceptance. We all want to stand up and get a nod, or a "great post" or a "great panel" bit from our peers. It makes us feel good. For pirates it's the same thing. It's not about the actual "file", it's about having it. How many people spend hours upon hours ripping down a movie that is nothing more than a handicam smuggled in. I mean, who would BUY that. BUT to be the FIRST to offer the hottest movie out there regardless of quality, THAT's SOMETHING.I may be deluded, but I honestly feel that MOST of us who frequent this board, and are heavy into simming, are honest customers who purchase everything we need to. Those who don't pay for Flight Sim, or it's addons don't place any value to it anyway, and thus would probably not buy it in the first place. If a copy of Visual C+++ lands into a 13 year olds computer and that 13 year old never even uses the product, can Microsoft really count that as a lost sale?The most insideous pirates out there are not the 13 year old johnnies who are simply "collecting files", or a guy looking for a gauge, or a sap who wants 2 weeks of center stage by answering questions about FS2004.It's the payware developer who with malice of forethought puruses the freeware files of sites like these and intentionally culls the best freeware only to then package it up and try to sell it as their own.Those are the true villans in my eyes, and that is who the hunt should be levied for. My .02Will.

[Guest Ken_Salter]

I guess in this age of "immediate gratification" one would expect some people to go get an illegal copy of some software so they feel like the belong to an "elite" group.Well, to those people I say "kiss my grits!"I guess maybe it is better for software companies not to ever allow beta testers to speak publicly about the product, or for the companies never to release GOLD copies.That way the weak willed won't have the urge to upload/download this software, or to feel "left out" when the true beta testers start sharing with the public.If WE (all software users) continue to ABUSE the freedoms we have, one day we will find that we will have lost those same freedoms.IMHO.http://saltydogfly2.avsim.net/images/avsim_sig.jpg"I am the keeper of the cheese; you are the lemon merchant"