Piracy and Flight Sims.

[Guest]

>I really think the difference is that there is that in this>community, piracy is something that people take personally.>It's a matter of pride. >It's also a matter of jobs, food on the table, for a lot of people.I may not make my money creating FS addons but I DO make my money creating software.I see people using pirated development tools to create software which they then sell.I even see people asking for ways to pirate tools that prevent people form pirating the software they're writing (the ultimate irony IMO).That's what it's all about, not someone's hurt pride.>Most developers, are not out there developing planes, panels,>and addons simply for their own use. They get something out>of it. It may not be monetary, but the get something.>>The freeware developer gets the praise from his peers. The>Kudo's, the pride, the "love". >That fame can lead to money, if and when that person is then asked to join a commercial group (as happens regularly).Take that fame away by removing that product as being created by that person (20 others call it their own too, now who was the actual creator?) and that person looses his potential for a job and thus income.>Every developer takes an act of piracy as if it were directed>towards them personally. And I can understand that feeling. >Many payware developers today are the freeware developers of>yesterday. Thus the same feelings of hurt and betrayal apply.> So now, when they have some capital, they decide to>incorporate very elaborate anti-piracy means to prevent that. >Every act of piracy IS directed at every developer personally.Each time some piece of software gets pirated anywhere in the world it's another chip in all of our jobs and our potential to make a living doing what we love and excel at.Every piece of pirated software reduces my marketability and thus the price I can ask for my work, the payment I can earn from my employer, until at some point it's become such a natural thing to use pirated crap that noone hires people anymore to create software for them because it's become accepted to use a pirated piece of software instead.I've installed computers for people many times. I've for the last several years not met a single person who didn't expect me to throw in pirated copies of Windows and MS Office (something I steadfastly refuse, I tell them how much it will cost for me to get it for them and please pay in advance).And that attitude is getting worse all the time. 90% of entertainment titles in use are now pirated, 75% of operating systems and some 35-50% of business applications (and among private users 75% or more, that number is lower only because most companies (still) do purchase their licenses.I've colleagues who think it so natural to use a pirated version that they speak openly about it at work, even knowing how I think about it.That's what has to change, and if that means going after every single 13 year old who uses a pirated FS addon than that's what it takes.And in my opinion that IS what it takes, because that 13 year old is still pliable and might be taught that piracy is NOT "cool" or "OK" and is actually a crime.>But, when some snot nosed kid comes in and asks for the Beech>Baron that we paid good money for, we take it personally and>launch into the guy. >Most people will just tell them they should have gotten the Pro version instead.I WILL violently pursue those who actually give that snotnosed kid that Baron, as they know full well what they're doing. That kid gets a warning, and most will take it and look for alternatives (which are aplenty).>And as all of us "regulars" beg at their tables for their>scraps of food, is it any wonder why some folks might want to>fire up kaaza and download a "preview" for ourselves, and pose>as one of the "elite"? I mean, here's a guy who says to>himself. "I'm buying the first day that it comes out. I've>already pre purchased it from AVSIM, so what's wrong with a>little preview? Also, I can use the CD crack so I can protect>my valuable investment.">It's still piracy. While maybe not AS bad as not buying the official version, it does lead to that.Maybe not for you, but many will just not buy it as they have it anyway so why spend the money now eh?And of course most people who get a pirated version have no inclination to buy the official product at all, not now and not ever.>Remember guys. In the flight sim community, it's all about>acceptance. We all want to stand up and get a nod, or a>"great post" or a "great panel" bit from our peers. It makes>us feel good. >I don't and refuse to EVER accept pirates or their actions.Once you start down that path there is no end.>I may be deluded, but I honestly feel that MOST of us who>frequent this board, and are heavy into simming, are honest>customers who purchase everything we need to. Those who don't>pay for Flight Sim, or it's addons don't place any value to it>anyway, and thus would probably not buy it in the first place.> If they wouldn't buy it in the first place, why is it good enough to download and play without paying for the right?So according to you it's OK for me to use a pirated version of FS2004 if I consider the

[Guest]

>I guess in this age of "immediate gratification" one would>expect some people to go get an illegal copy of some software>so they feel like the belong to an "elite" group.>Exactly. Plus of course they don't consider what they're doing to be wrong at all, they consider it natural and right (even going so far as saying that they're "punishing large corporations for overcharging".>I guess maybe it is better for software companies not to ever>allow beta testers to speak publicly about the product, or for>the companies never to release GOLD copies.>Yes, that would be better. Or better yet have NO external beta at all and only have internal beta programs.Would for a while play hell on software that needs to run on many different hardware combinations, and only large companies can get around that a bit, but that's the price (especially as most of what is leaked on P2P networks and pirated CDs are beta versions put out by unscrupulous external testers.>If WE (all software users) continue to ABUSE the freedoms we>have, one day we will find that we will have lost those same>freedoms.>I'd make that stronger and say "if WE (all software users) continue to accept the ABUSE of the freedom we have by ourselves and others, one day we will find we will have lost those same freedoms".

[Guest Ken_Salter]

Basically this is the same as insurance fraud."Well everyone does it. Those insurance companies have SO MUCH money, why can't I get some? They won't miss it. It is a victimless crime."Have you wondered why your insurance premiums are so high?http://saltydogfly2.avsim.net/images/avsim_sig.jpg"I am the keeper of the cheese; you are the lemon merchant"

[Guest Daniel Pimentel]

Jeroen:I agree with both of you to an extent, but I think you need to open up a little and read what he's saying, because he does have a point. Piracy is not necessarily personal, because a pirate who TRULY wants the product to USE IT likes the developer. There are many reasons why some people pirate software, and I think Will has some interesting points that are logic. I don't condone piracy, but what if somebody simply cannot afford a product and he pirates it, can you consider that a lost sale? FS software is not like, fot example, food. There's no limited amounts, so the pirate is not taking merchandise that you'd be selling to anyone else. I think the BIG pirate is the one that CAN buy the product and doesn't because he can get it for free.(digs trench in backyard, hides in it) :-lol Daniel Pimentel

[Guest]

If I cannot afford a new car, makes that simple fact my theft of that car suddenly OK?Or maybe I want a new computer but I have no money at the moment (quite probable...), should I just go into a store and steal one?In your reasoning that should be condoned because I wouldn't have bought it anyway...

[Guest]

I know. On the other end of that equation I've been cheated by insurance companies who refused to pay the insured value even after I handed over receipts claiming that the value I claimed was less than that...In the end I got only sbout a third of the value I'd paid premiums over.1/3 deducted for their reasoning that the actual value was less1/3 deducted for their reasoning I was trying to cheat them...Given such random acts (and it happened more than once) of insurance companies I am starting to understand why people claim sums that are higher than the actual value, maybe after the deductions you'll get what you're really due...

[Guest Daniel Pimentel]

No, in my views there's a limited amount of cars and computers, and they are UNITS. The one you'd be taking could be sold to somebody else, so the profits ARE hurt because the car's money compensates for the cost to assemble it. But in a piece of software, is a pirate taking a copy of the software that someone else would have bought? That's what I am saying. I agree that piracy MUST be fought against, but I think the wrong people are being targeted. There's no loss if people don't buy the product, because there's an unlimited amount. So if you cannot buy in the first place, you're not hurting the developer's sales. If you CAN buy, on the other hand...Daniel Pimentel

[boshar 6]

>I know. On the other end of that equation I've been cheated>by insurance companies who refused to pay the insured value>even after I handed over receipts claiming that the value I>claimed was less than that...>>In the end I got only sbout a third of the value I'd paid>premiums over.>1/3 deducted for their reasoning that the actual value was>less>1/3 deducted for their reasoning I was trying to cheat>them...>>Given such random acts (and it happened more than once) of>insurance companies I am starting to understand why people>claim sums that are higher than the actual value, maybe after>the deductions you'll get what you're really due...A little creative rewording:On the other end of that equation I've been cheated by FS add-on makers who refused to deliver reinstall keys even after I handed over receipts claiming that I was pirating their software...In the end I finaly got got a final reinstall key for the software I'd paid for. But that was after it had costs me a considerable amount of time and e-mails with them. They even told me not to ask for further keys for they where reasoning I was trying to cheat them...Given such random acts (and it happened more than once) ofadd-on makers I am starting to understand why people use pirated copies, and only buy the add-on after it is discounted maybe after the deductions you'll get what you're really due...See Jeroen you're almost a pirate :-)Shame on you with your until now fully righteous antipiracy stand.

[Guest Daniel Pimentel]

:-lolDaniel Pimentel

[Guest IanP]

I think there are several points here that are worth raising. The first one is that there is a difference between software and a solid object such as a car or a computer.Part of the criminal law, certainly here in the UK, uses terminology that includes preventing the rightful owner from using what has been taken. If I stole a car, I would be preventing the rightful owner from using it. If I take a copy of someone's software, they still have it. I haven't stopped them using it.That doesn't mean to say that it isn't theft, but copying software is a different kind of theft from taking an object which cannot be identically and easily reproduced, which is the flaw in your argument above. I also think that is why so many people find it 'more acceptable' than physical theft.The second point is that many of the true pirates really *do* have no interest in the software they copy. Yes, there will be people who copy something specifically because they want it, but on the whole, from experience, the pirates I have come across are more interested in how big their collection is than what is in it... Except that the newer the version and more expensive the package, the better. You won't find Lago or FSD packages on most Warez sites, because most people on the planet would say "Who?" and then download 3d Studio or AutoCAD, which they have no intention of using, because they know what that is and it would cost them a lot of money to buy!My final point is that I understood the original poster's comment to be that some Freeware authors are ridiculously overboard with their terms and conditions of use. I find that is entirely fair and accurate. "Don't put this on a CD" - fine, "Don't make money from this" - again, not a problem. "Credit me as the author of this work" - no problem at all, that's the law! "Don't touch, modify, repaint, rename the directory of or anything else!" - Er... what exactly are you trying to protect, with that?That isn't a piracy issue, which is what this thread has become (again), it's a reality check that I think a few people could do with looking at. It's also a far more important topic to most people interested in flightsim than Piracy. The vast majority of people here, I suspect, are not pirates with thousands of pounds worth of illegal software on their hard drives. Many probably do wish, though, that there was a livery available for some very good aircraft in their 'own' airline's colours that they can't have because of overly restrictive requirements from certain authors.(Updated to fix typo.)Ian P.

[Jeff Nielsen 1,385]

Ken S.,<"I guess maybe it is better for software companies not to ever allow beta testers to speak publicly about the product, or for the companies never to release GOLD copies.">Thats almost the very reason why we never told anyone we were beta testors or tried to answer questions about our products and COF (until the last minute)..the second reason is that due to NDA's and such it really precludes us from even saying anything about the product to begin with..in fact it doesn't really even help us to get the products updated as you need the gold version anyways. All it serves is to distract us from getting our work done, LOL :-) It took alot for us to break down and even want to be in on the beta. the plus side is obviousley getting to see in advance what is going on..We all know SDK's don't even appear till later after the product is RTM. The other reason for beta is to be able to help MS identify bugs and usability issues so that the product itself is 'easier and "less" buggy'--so to speak..hehe.As far as pirates are concerned..I think you all have missed the very definition of a pirate...one who steals then sells the stolen goods---in short..you all are probably refering to crackers or hackers. We all have seen some evidence of payware 'people'--not legit companies steal someone's work then resell it..I don't think they last long..those are the pirates, those are the jokers we need to weed out (I don't think anyone's ever tried reselling our LCY though).In any case we should make sure we are talking apples to apples before we just go and crucify someone.

[gosta 0]

Hi Ian,>Part of the criminal law, certainly here in the UK, uses terminology that includes preventing the rightful owner from using what has been taken. If I stole a car, I would be preventing the rightful owner from using it. If I take a copy of someone's software, they still have it. I haven't stopped them using it.http://hifi.avsim.net/activesky/images/wxrebeta.jpg

[Guest wathomas777]

Ouch!!!

[Guest Ken_Salter]

Doesn't matter. If every FS company "cheated" you, you have no legal (or ethical) right to steal their merchandise.Same as insurance fraud, it doesn't matter. It is still illegal.You want to be able to do this legally? Lobby your legislative representative to change the laws.http://saltydogfly2.avsim.net/images/avsim_sig.jpg"I am the keeper of the cheese; you are the lemon merchant"

[Jeff Nielsen 1,385]

Now, don't misunderstand the comment about the beta..we did eventually ask MS to be in on the beta (as we thought it might help speed up our dev. process), and we were more than happy to do our part to help out..but you have to keep it in it's proper perspective.