Purchasing PRO-ATC/X

[Andayle 47]

Alpha117 has been quite active on PFPX support forums over at aerosoft, so he is still around, just not on the Proatcx forum. Also a few days ago the last remaining forum admin said he was stepping away from the forum. I don't know if that's because of the state the forums now seem to be in. There are more posts appearing about people not being happy with communication that just fall into arguments.

 

I already own Proatcx but I would find it hard to recommend to anyone, usually I would say its a good program that needs some work but the devs are actively addressing problems and adding much needed features, just go and check the forums to see for your self. However that's not the case anymore, if I suggested a potential customer to read the forum it would almost definitely put them off. I'm back to using no atc program at all. I think the only good thing that may come out of Proatcx for me is that I'm very tempted to sign up for vatsim and start flying online instead. Hopefully the devs for Proatcx will reappear as it does have a lot of potential if it is still being worked on.

 

 

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[Parping Couplet 117]

Sad to say I'm in the same boat as Andayle when it comes to ProATCX. It has too many shortcomings to be something I can rely upon, so it's now confined to the "beta masquerading as a full release"" hangar until such a time that promised, and very necessary, improvements are fully implemented.

 

As others have noted, the situation in the Pointsoft forum has gotten rather ugly, with customers and a now ever changing cast of moderators falling out over what is an acceptable level of transparency and communication, while the developer Mourad is very conspicuous by his continued absence, with moderator assurances that he is too busy recoding the product to show up in the forums. That is just not right for an expensive, unfinished piece of software, and customers seeking reassurance, in my view.

 

It's yet another sad example of an FSX add-on being unleashed before it is completely fit for purpose. This sort of thing does a lot of damage to the flight sim add on industry and it is to be hoped that the key players can soon form some sort of industry body to set standards and go some way to preventing this sort of thing.

[Simmer2050 28]

Give a descent product a good name, and all simmers will have less hassle to get through before being able to make a descent flight.

 

Give a bad product good or fair name, and all you do is encourage more unscrupulous looking to make a quick off a beta-bin prodcut at the expense of all simmers. 

 

Case in point, Despite all the noise about other weather programs AS2012 does all i want so no need to look elsewhere and dont have the time.

 

Pro ATC on the other hand, is nothing short of a clear rip off, or inconpitent software engineeers looking to make a quick buck at expense of those with trigger happy wallets. And same goes for REX.

 

You guys keep defendiing bad products you killing the hobby. Pro ATC is a useless product, i paid for it and rmoved soon as installed.

 

AVSIM could do much much better in  distancing itself and its moderators  from addon developers with rip off products.

else thier doing thier best to kill a dying hobby.

 

nough said

[Parping Couplet 117]

 

 

AVSIM could do much much better in distancing itself and its moderators from addon developers with rip off products.

 

else thier doing thier best to kill a dying hobby.

 

Maybe that's a little extreme and it's difficult for Avsim to be judge and jury in these situations. My commercial experience in other spheres suggests that self regulation of the add on industry, as it becomes more professional, is essential. A code of practice is badly needed to avoid situations where products are being released prematurely or are simply not fit for purpose. That's not as complex as it may first appear - basically all that is needed is for software to "do what it says on the tin" - if it is proved to have fallen short of that then the buying public should be made aware of the non compliance, or actually bring a claimed non-compliance to the attention of the body. Maybe Avsim could be the ideal forum for such info dissemination/private reporting, confident that it has the backing of a recognized industry body.

 

It is also important that membership of the industry body is inexpensive, conditional on compliance with a code of practice, and supported on websites, marketing etc, by a logo of such membership. This should, over time, become a seal of quality and standards of customer service that hobbyists, in spending hundreds, even thousands, of dollars a year, should expect and demand.

 

As add-ons become ever more sophisticated, supported by a matching price structure, can anyone deny that the game is changing and there is a real need to set some basic consumer standards?

[Fatback 84]

 

 

The up side to this is it has encouraged me to try Vatsim which is a whole new world!

 

I agree. I paid big bucks knowing it was beta because of all the talk about how good the support and product development was. Well, the prodcut wasn't and isn't good enough to use in a functional way, imho, so I ended up giving Vatsim a try and I love it. So it gave me the ATC "bug" and the end result was good. If more expensive than it needed to be lol. 

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

AVSIM could do much much better in distancing itself and its moderators from addon developers with rip off products.

 

else thier doing thier best to kill a dying hobby.

 

nough said

 

We are "doing our best to kill a dying hobby"? We could also do well by distancing ourselves from sanctimonious and self-righteous users who have no clue of what they speak. THERE IS A WARNING THERE FOR YOU - just in case you missed the subtleties of that sentence. nough said.

[Jim Padgett 11]

I use PATCx with no issues every flight ...

 

Some say tomato some say tomoto ...

[High Plains Flyer 35]

I actually purchased this product based on a quick review which appeared here on AVSIM:  http://forum.avsim.net/topic/376905-a-quick-fly-by-of-pro-atc/?hl=+pro#8208atc&page=1

 

In no place in that "quick flyby" was it indicated that the product was still in beta and that it was basically non-functional.  There was no mention that there was no documentation for the program.  The main complaint about the product that it was missing a number of SIDS and STARS, which struck me as being relatively minor and easy to fix.  I really believe that I was misled.  (And yes, this is a complaint.)

 

My decision to purchase this product was informed by that review.  If I have learned anything from this experience, it is that I cannot trust the reviews that I see here.  This is unfortunate, because I will hesitate to purchase good products from reliable developers.  This site does have other value to me, in having a good library of files and active forums where I can occasionally get good advise.  (However, there is a lot of bad advise and unhelpful comments -- so that aspect is something of a mixed bag.)

 

Since I started this hobby, I have discovered that the usual norms of conduct one finds in commercial transactions do not apply to the flight simulation hobby.  It really is the Wild West with this hobby.  Fraud is rampant.  Developers feel free to sell unfinished and non-functional products.  Promises are made, which the developer has not intention of keeping.  Reviewers feel a need to protect developers from legitimate criticism, at the expense of the consumers who purchase these products.  Nothing every works quite right.  It really is a sad state of affairs.

 

The consumers are at a disadvantage in this setting.  They plunk down their money and hope the product is as described.  They trust that reviews are honest.  But once they pay their money, the Ferengi First Rule of Acquisition seems to apply:  "Once you get their money, you never give it back."

 

This state of affairs just encourages unauthorized downloads of software.  The people making unauthorized downloads can say, with some justification, they are trying the program to see if it works as promised;  and they will actually purchase the product if it does work correctly.  Of course, whether such a purchase is ever made is debatable.  It would seem that developers would want to discourage these unauthorized downloads by eliminating one of the justifications for them.  All in all, this is just plain bad for the hobby as a whole.

 

It really goes without saying that markets cease to function when they are unregulated, corrupt, and riddled with fraud.  What we have seen the developers do with this product should be roundly condemned by everyone.

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

 

 

I actually purchased this product based on a quick review which appeared here on AVSIM: http://forum.avsim.n...#8208atc&page=1

 

You purchased a product based upon a review that is nearly a year and a half old (you didn't say when you purchased it, so I am assuming you bought it recently)? The author of that snap review disappeared two or three days after it was posted, and hasn't been seen since. He wasn't able to update it or respond to posts like yours and others. I don't have the product, but can assure you that had the issues that others have pointed out were there during that initial "snap shot", Chock, one of the best reviewers we had up until then, would have mentioned them. And I am sure that everyone who interacted with him and were on the receiving end of his help would agree with me.

[Simmer2050 28]

 Hi Tom

 

very sorry i voiced  my opinion about loosing yet another 50 euros to a product i cant use. 

 

Since i cant say anymore wihtout being booted, ill let this thread speak for itself, and it speaks VOLUMES

 

This is where my Pro TAc waste of money started

 

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/391537-any-recommendations-to-replace-radarcontact/?hl=pro atc

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

This is where my Pro TAc waste of money started

http://forum.avsim.n...contact/?hl=pro atc

So, despite all the information you received in that thread, you still purchased the product. And then you said at one point:

Commercial interests and personal interests are always going to conflict, but you can not have a forum to represent both, AVSIM is either one big commercial or a forum of fsx users sharing ideas. Most of the team i dont believe what read in posts on avsim anymore, case in point ended paying 40 euros for Pro ATC where you need 2 prargraphs and a tweak to do "File Open" for existing FSX flightplan, the thing should not even be on sale.

 

Hence the topic in the name i gave it, when i started it. Protection of commercial interests is in conflict with reason why people come to AVSIM in the first place.

SHOW ME WHERE WE ARE OR HAVE BEEN PROTECTING COMMERCIAL INTERESTS. Seems to me that you are disavowing any personal responsibility in YOUR decision to purchase the product and a full 10 months later, you are still accusing AVSIM of somehow forcing you to do so. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Blaming others for your decisions is pretty immature. I would suggest that you have a hair up your rump about AVSIM for whatever reason and 10 months on, you are still harping your inability to take responsibility after having read the good and the bad of the product. Go read our terms of service again. Your access to AVSIM is not a RIGHT. It is a privilege that we give you. If you don't like it here, then don't let the door hit you on your entitled rump. Accuse us of conflicts of interest with commercial interests again, and you won't have a choice.

[doublebubble 20]

Well after all that's been said may I ask one question, does Pro-atc work with Active Sky Evolution weather engine?

 

Cheers Rod.

[Simmer2050 28]

So, despite all the information you received in that thread, you still purchased the product. And then you said at one point:

SHOW ME WHERE WE ARE OR HAVE BEEN PROTECTING COMMERCIAL INTERESTS. Seems to me that you are disavowing any personal responsibility in YOUR decision to purchase the product and a full 10 months later, you are still accusing AVSIM of somehow forcing you to do so. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Blaming others for your decisions is pretty immature. I would suggest that you have a hair up your rump about AVSIM for whatever reason and 10 months on, you are still harping your inability to take responsibility after having read the good and the bad of the product. Go read our terms of service again. Your access to AVSIM is not a RIGHT. It is a privilege that we give you. If you don't like it here, then don't let the door hit you on your entitled rump. Accuse us of conflicts of interest with commercial interests again, and you won't have a choice.

 

Hi Tom

 

Please refer to previous thread  that closed by firehawk44 moderator when i complained about ProATC then reopened.

 

And you can also search AVSIm or google for

firehawk44 AND Pro ATC

 

There is also this strangly hugly popular thread started  by a moderator

http://forum.avsim.n...#8208atc&page=1

 

Here is another thread on Pro ATC started by moderator, sounds like a promotion thread to me.

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/386475-proatc-x-update/

at a time when folks like myself knew this elephant was never  gona fly, pls folow this thread to page 2.

 

Here a couple of folks and moderator are praising Pro ATC, months after pretty much all who purchased felt they wasted thier cash

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/397951-my-little-pro-atcx-review/page-1

 

And another one here

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/395005-current-status-of-pro-atc/

 

 

I cant understand where your moderators draw the line on moderating and not being biased to promote a product most users regret purchasing

 

 

Here is the link to my google search in case you want more results

 https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=firehawk44++proatc+avsim+site:forum.avsim.net&biw=1131&bih=573#q=firehawk44++proatc+avsim+site:forum.avsim.net&start=10

 

Last but not least

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/413064-atc-recommendations/

 

 

 

The Pro ATC threds just kept coming up from the dead, and from the comments it apperas to any adullt reading the thread moderators had only good things to say about this terrible product.

 

   

As far as i am concerned commercial and personal intrests dont have to clash if nobody is looking to serve anybody a raw deal.

 

Having been on AVSIM for several years, will say moderating has improved since the days of David Rouch and his school head master style of moderating complete with a whip if you complain about the wrong addon.

 

 

I can understand commercial members pushing thier products and starting new threads about thier product, but moderators pushing dead products is ...., nough said.

 

If the actions of some moderatorsa in all the threads listed is not advertising, then i rest my case.

 

Those who wana make money off us users like PMDG  do so with our pleasure, and we already make enough contributions on the good products to deserve active support from AVSIm in avoiding wasting money on bad products, rather than being told to shut up  

[Simmer2050 28]

Well after all that's been said may I ask one question, does Pro-atc work with Active Sky Evolution weather engine?

 

Cheers Rod.

AS far as i concerned , PFE is the best ATC addon, and i use it with AS2012  no problems. 1000 More functions than Rc4, but not as stable as rc4. For me its 100 times better than rc4.

 

As for Pro ATC, google is your friend so you can get a balanced opinion, also google PFE

[DarkstarF16 72]

Lets step back a little bit... The only information I gleaned about this product I got from these forums. It left me in no doubt as to what I was letting myself in for.

 

The way I see it is, I didn't BUY this product, I INVESTED in it. why? For the simple reason that it was unfinished. That was in no doubt, I cannot remember reading anywhere, any fact that stated the contrary. The feeling I got from everything I read, was that their was a lot to do but that generally speaking regular updates were being provided and progress was moving forwards. By spending my money I felt that I could invest and maybe have a little input into something that was new and growing.

 

Indeed, it was not complete and indeed, the developer was providing regular updates. In fact, I was amazed at how regular it was.

 

I remember thinking back in May that the summer is approaching and maybe the developer will need a break because, otherwise he/she/they would burn out. Maybe this is what has happened, the frustrating part is the not knowing, not the fact that I spent the money. That was my choice and I had done my research.

 

If the web site suddenly disappears because the developer has not payed his rent then, as far as my investment goes its, you win some you lose some. And lesson learnt.

 

I have only one caveat, and that is that the developer IMO should have the moral compass to inform investors of progress. Be that good news or bad.