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kaspern83

Purchasing PRO-ATC/X

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I think ProAtc users were spoiled getting updates every week or two. monthly or bi monthly would have been better so as not to have such high expectations when life of devs take a turn. Course it was released a little premature. But they would have never found the things they did without a community using it. That said, a lack of communication by them is a grave concern. At the very least say something. We're alive, we are working on this... Hope to give an update in the coming weeks or next few months. Just something. Else its dead

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The developer may have realised that the dream of a most realistic ATC addon is not achievable.

 

I have stopped using it for the mean time as it does not work in my home country, and after repeated requests for a remedy, which even went unanswered by Clive (Alpha117), which he only makes guest appearances at the forum ,

 

Even those who raved about how great PATCX is and is going to be don't post about it now. Jim ?

 

Back to using RC4 and /or PFE. Might be old, but they work.

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I purchased PATCX with my eyes wide open. Clearly, I didn't buy a finished product and saw myself instead, as an investor. As an investor I saw the regular feedback and updates as a good business model. I didn't ask to be spoiled in this way but the president had been set, and the experience was a good one.

 

What now? Well it's very quite!

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Sorry I didnt get to respond but yes, more promises unanswered, the only support is from the end users helping themselves, lots of bugs etc.. One moderator that tries to help out as much as he can, but the dev hasnt even logged in close to 2 weeks.  No one knows what is going on. Exactly, I did get spoiled when I first purchased the software by the weekly updates, and the devs constantly helping users etc.. Still hoping for best though. Who knows... Even the dev himself said "The next Update is comming but I'm really tired of disappointing you regarding a release date. This feature is very hard to implement. How ever, I can confirm it will definitively be implemented. Would I have given up so fast before, PRO-ATC/X would probably never have been released. So please be a little bit more patient." 

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I can say, that I haven't been spoiled by ProATC.

 

I bought it about 4 months ago. During this time, I have reported over 20 bugs. Some of them on the support forum and some by email.

 

Can you guess how many replies I have gotten from the developer? I'm sad to say that it's zero...

 

I might have been lucky before, but ProATC is my first flight sim purchase, where I haven't been able to contact the developer at all.

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I bought my copy like january of this year, and up to may the support on the forums has been great. Since may it took a deep deep dive into the abyss.

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Well... perhaps now it's been confirmed that the RC5 project is one ice indefinitely, the devs behind ProATC will have renewed energy to continu development. I haven't bought it yet and will hold off until at least a new version is released if only for a confirmation that it is in fact still being developed and improved.

The ultimate ATC addon for FSX might prove to be close to impossible (so bad MS didn't include it in the SDK), but I would love to see something along the lines of Radar Contact with a bit more polished interface, voices and SID/STAR implementation. 

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I too purchased Proatc, I was attracted to the assurance that it would at some point have voice control. The moderator who made this announcement (Alpha117) seems to have vanished but has been very critical of anyone who lodges serious questions or doubts about the program. I hope to be surprised by the next update. Support is now in the hands of members, so all in all not very professional for an expensive product. The up side to this is it has encouraged me to try Vatsim which is a whole new world! 

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I haven't used ProATC for months also. I really regret my purchase to be honest (it's pretty expensive for what you get), I should have gone for VoxATC which is more mature at this time. But I'm not going to invest this much money anymore in any ATC add-on, so I'll wait for the update that was promised months ago. We'll see I guess, nothing we can do about it!

 

The thing that really bothers me is the lack of communication. They promised Jarkko (who posted here somewhere above ^^) answers to his bug reposts "ASAP!", and still after weeks/months absolutely NOTHING. That is just disgraceful. And then they openly attack their customers who complain elsewhere, saying that their customers are unprofessional (LOL!).... That is really beyond me...

 

But some loyal people reply that if the developer would answer any questions or bug reports, that he wouldn't have time for working on the new update. Like 10 minutes a week makes any difference.... I guess some are scared that the developer will stop supporting it if things get too negative. The developer or Clive are the only ones who can make everyone confident again by giving a official update. Even a couple of lines would make a difference, and of course be a little active on your own forum and give some basic support. They charge full price, but really lack any kind of service to make up for it. It's a shame, but again... nothing we can do about it unfortunately.

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If you are giving something away for free then fine, it's at the users risk. If your charging its another story. I understand that ProATC is a one man operation, but they do have a forum so at least have tried to offer support. The fact that the site is still operating and taking new orders I presume, is either a good thing or a bad thing. The silence is deafening.

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Alpha117 has been quite active on PFPX support forums over at aerosoft, so he is still around, just not on the Proatcx forum. Also a few days ago the last remaining forum admin said he was stepping away from the forum. I don't know if that's because of the state the forums now seem to be in. There are more posts appearing about people not being happy with communication that just fall into arguments.

 

I already own Proatcx but I would find it hard to recommend to anyone, usually I would say its a good program that needs some work but the devs are actively addressing problems and adding much needed features, just go and check the forums to see for your self. However that's not the case anymore, if I suggested a potential customer to read the forum it would almost definitely put them off. I'm back to using no atc program at all. I think the only good thing that may come out of Proatcx for me is that I'm very tempted to sign up for vatsim and start flying online instead. Hopefully the devs for Proatcx will reappear as it does have a lot of potential if it is still being worked on.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk - now Free

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Sad to say I'm in the same boat as Andayle when it comes to ProATCX. It has too many shortcomings to be something I can rely upon, so it's now confined to the "beta masquerading as a full release"" hangar until such a time that promised, and very necessary, improvements are fully implemented.

 

As others have noted, the situation in the Pointsoft forum has gotten rather ugly, with customers and a now ever changing cast of moderators falling out over what is an acceptable level of transparency and communication, while the developer Mourad is very conspicuous by his continued absence, with moderator assurances that he is too busy recoding the product to show up in the forums. That is just not right for an expensive, unfinished piece of software, and customers seeking reassurance, in my view.

 

It's yet another sad example of an FSX add-on being unleashed before it is completely fit for purpose. This sort of thing does a lot of damage to the flight sim add on industry and it is to be hoped that the key players can soon form some sort of industry body to set standards and go some way to preventing this sort of thing.

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Give a descent product a good name, and all simmers will have less hassle to get through before being able to make a descent flight.

 

Give a bad product good or fair name, and all you do is encourage more unscrupulous looking to make a quick off a beta-bin prodcut at the expense of all simmers. 

 

Case in point, Despite all the noise about other weather programs AS2012 does all i want so no need to look elsewhere and dont have the time.

 

Pro ATC on the other hand, is nothing short of a clear rip off, or inconpitent software engineeers looking to make a quick buck at expense of those with trigger happy wallets. And same goes for REX.

 

You guys keep defendiing bad products you killing the hobby. Pro ATC is a useless product, i paid for it and rmoved soon as installed.

 

AVSIM could do much much better in  distancing itself and its moderators  from addon developers with rip off products.

else thier doing thier best to kill a dying hobby.

 

nough said

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AVSIM could do much much better in distancing itself and its moderators from addon developers with rip off products.

 

else thier doing thier best to kill a dying hobby.

 

Maybe that's a little extreme and it's difficult for Avsim to be judge and jury in these situations. My commercial experience in other spheres suggests that self regulation of the add on industry, as it becomes more professional, is essential. A code of practice is badly needed to avoid situations where products are being released prematurely or are simply not fit for purpose. That's not as complex as it may first appear - basically all that is needed is for software to "do what it says on the tin" - if it is proved to have fallen short of that then the buying public should be made aware of the non compliance, or actually bring a claimed non-compliance to the attention of the body. Maybe Avsim could be the ideal forum for such info dissemination/private reporting, confident that it has the backing of a recognized industry body.

 

It is also important that membership of the industry body is inexpensive, conditional on compliance with a code of practice, and supported on websites, marketing etc, by a logo of such membership. This should, over time, become a seal of quality and standards of customer service that hobbyists, in spending hundreds, even thousands, of dollars a year, should expect and demand.

 

As add-ons become ever more sophisticated, supported by a matching price structure, can anyone deny that the game is changing and there is a real need to set some basic consumer standards?

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The up side to this is it has encouraged me to try Vatsim which is a whole new world!

 

I agree. I paid big bucks knowing it was beta because of all the talk about how good the support and product development was. Well, the prodcut wasn't and isn't good enough to use in a functional way, imho, so I ended up giving Vatsim a try and I love it. So it gave me the ATC "bug" and the end result was good. If more expensive than it needed to be lol. 

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AVSIM could do much much better in distancing itself and its moderators from addon developers with rip off products.

 

else thier doing thier best to kill a dying hobby.

 

nough said

 

We are "doing our best to kill a dying hobby"? We could also do well by distancing ourselves from sanctimonious and self-righteous users who have no clue of what they speak. THERE IS A WARNING THERE FOR YOU - just in case you missed the subtleties of that sentence. nough said.

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I actually purchased this product based on a quick review which appeared here on AVSIM:  http://forum.avsim.net/topic/376905-a-quick-fly-by-of-pro-atc/?hl=+pro#8208atc&page=1

 

In no place in that "quick flyby" was it indicated that the product was still in beta and that it was basically non-functional.  There was no mention that there was no documentation for the program.  The main complaint about the product that it was missing a number of SIDS and STARS, which struck me as being relatively minor and easy to fix.  I really believe that I was misled.  (And yes, this is a complaint.)

 

My decision to purchase this product was informed by that review.  If I have learned anything from this experience, it is that I cannot trust the reviews that I see here.  This is unfortunate, because I will hesitate to purchase good products from reliable developers.  This site does have other value to me, in having a good library of files and active forums where I can occasionally get good advise.  (However, there is a lot of bad advise and unhelpful comments -- so that aspect is something of a mixed bag.)

 

Since I started this hobby, I have discovered that the usual norms of conduct one finds in commercial transactions do not apply to the flight simulation hobby.  It really is the Wild West with this hobby.  Fraud is rampant.  Developers feel free to sell unfinished and non-functional products.  Promises are made, which the developer has not intention of keeping.  Reviewers feel a need to protect developers from legitimate criticism, at the expense of the consumers who purchase these products.  Nothing every works quite right.  It really is a sad state of affairs.

 

The consumers are at a disadvantage in this setting.  They plunk down their money and hope the product is as described.  They trust that reviews are honest.  But once they pay their money, the Ferengi First Rule of Acquisition seems to apply:  "Once you get their money, you never give it back."

 

This state of affairs just encourages unauthorized downloads of software.  The people making unauthorized downloads can say, with some justification, they are trying the program to see if it works as promised;  and they will actually purchase the product if it does work correctly.  Of course, whether such a purchase is ever made is debatable.  It would seem that developers would want to discourage these unauthorized downloads by eliminating one of the justifications for them.  All in all, this is just plain bad for the hobby as a whole.

 

It really goes without saying that markets cease to function when they are unregulated, corrupt, and riddled with fraud.  What we have seen the developers do with this product should be roundly condemned by everyone.

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I actually purchased this product based on a quick review which appeared here on AVSIM: http://forum.avsim.n...#8208atc&page=1

 

You purchased a product based upon a review that is nearly a year and a half old (you didn't say when you purchased it, so I am assuming you bought it recently)? The author of that snap review disappeared two or three days after it was posted, and hasn't been seen since. He wasn't able to update it or respond to posts like yours and others. I don't have the product, but can assure you that had the issues that others have pointed out were there during that initial "snap shot", Chock, one of the best reviewers we had up until then, would have mentioned them. And I am sure that everyone who interacted with him and were on the receiving end of his help would agree with me.

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This is where my Pro TAc waste of money started

http://forum.avsim.n...contact/?hl=pro atc

So, despite all the information you received in that thread, you still purchased the product. And then you said at one point:

Commercial interests and personal interests are always going to conflict, but you can not have a forum to represent both, AVSIM is either one big commercial or a forum of fsx users sharing ideas. Most of the team i dont believe what read in posts on avsim anymore, case in point ended paying 40 euros for Pro ATC where you need 2 prargraphs and a tweak to do "File Open" for existing FSX flightplan, the thing should not even be on sale.

 

Hence the topic in the name i gave it, when i started it. Protection of commercial interests is in conflict with reason why people come to AVSIM in the first place.

SHOW ME WHERE WE ARE OR HAVE BEEN PROTECTING COMMERCIAL INTERESTS. Seems to me that you are disavowing any personal responsibility in YOUR decision to purchase the product and a full 10 months later, you are still accusing AVSIM of somehow forcing you to do so. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Blaming others for your decisions is pretty immature. I would suggest that you have a hair up your rump about AVSIM for whatever reason and 10 months on, you are still harping your inability to take responsibility after having read the good and the bad of the product. Go read our terms of service again. Your access to AVSIM is not a RIGHT. It is a privilege that we give you. If you don't like it here, then don't let the door hit you on your entitled rump. Accuse us of conflicts of interest with commercial interests again, and you won't have a choice.

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Well after all that's been said may I ask one question, does Pro-atc work with Active Sky Evolution weather engine?

 

Cheers Rod.

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So, despite all the information you received in that thread, you still purchased the product. And then you said at one point:

SHOW ME WHERE WE ARE OR HAVE BEEN PROTECTING COMMERCIAL INTERESTS. Seems to me that you are disavowing any personal responsibility in YOUR decision to purchase the product and a full 10 months later, you are still accusing AVSIM of somehow forcing you to do so. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Blaming others for your decisions is pretty immature. I would suggest that you have a hair up your rump about AVSIM for whatever reason and 10 months on, you are still harping your inability to take responsibility after having read the good and the bad of the product. Go read our terms of service again. Your access to AVSIM is not a RIGHT. It is a privilege that we give you. If you don't like it here, then don't let the door hit you on your entitled rump. Accuse us of conflicts of interest with commercial interests again, and you won't have a choice.

 

Hi Tom

 

Please refer to previous thread  that closed by firehawk44 moderator when i complained about ProATC then reopened.

 

And you can also search AVSIm or google for

firehawk44 AND Pro ATC

 

There is also this strangly hugly popular thread started  by a moderator

http://forum.avsim.n...#8208atc&page=1

 

Here is another thread on Pro ATC started by moderator, sounds like a promotion thread to me.

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/386475-proatc-x-update/

at a time when folks like myself knew this elephant was never  gona fly, pls folow this thread to page 2.

 

Here a couple of folks and moderator are praising Pro ATC, months after pretty much all who purchased felt they wasted thier cash

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/397951-my-little-pro-atcx-review/page-1

 

And another one here

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/395005-current-status-of-pro-atc/

 

 

I cant understand where your moderators draw the line on moderating and not being biased to promote a product most users regret purchasing

 

 

Here is the link to my google search in case you want more results

 https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=firehawk44++proatc+avsim+site:forum.avsim.net&biw=1131&bih=573#q=firehawk44++proatc+avsim+site:forum.avsim.net&start=10

 

Last but not least

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/413064-atc-recommendations/

 

 

 

The Pro ATC threds just kept coming up from the dead, and from the comments it apperas to any adullt reading the thread moderators had only good things to say about this terrible product.

 

   

As far as i am concerned commercial and personal intrests dont have to clash if nobody is looking to serve anybody a raw deal.

 

Having been on AVSIM for several years, will say moderating has improved since the days of David Rouch and his school head master style of moderating complete with a whip if you complain about the wrong addon.

 

 

I can understand commercial members pushing thier products and starting new threads about thier product, but moderators pushing dead products is ...., nough said.

 

If the actions of some moderatorsa in all the threads listed is not advertising, then i rest my case.

 

Those who wana make money off us users like PMDG  do so with our pleasure, and we already make enough contributions on the good products to deserve active support from AVSIm in avoiding wasting money on bad products, rather than being told to shut up  

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Well after all that's been said may I ask one question, does Pro-atc work with Active Sky Evolution weather engine?

 

Cheers Rod.

AS far as i concerned , PFE is the best ATC addon, and i use it with AS2012  no problems. 1000 More functions than Rc4, but not as stable as rc4. For me its 100 times better than rc4.

 

As for Pro ATC, google is your friend so you can get a balanced opinion, also google PFE

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Lets step back a little bit... The only information I gleaned about this product I got from these forums. It left me in no doubt as to what I was letting myself in for.

 

The way I see it is, I didn't BUY this product, I INVESTED in it. why? For the simple reason that it was unfinished. That was in no doubt, I cannot remember reading anywhere, any fact that stated the contrary. The feeling I got from everything I read, was that their was a lot to do but that generally speaking regular updates were being provided and progress was moving forwards. By spending my money I felt that I could invest and maybe have a little input into something that was new and growing.

 

Indeed, it was not complete and indeed, the developer was providing regular updates. In fact, I was amazed at how regular it was.

 

I remember thinking back in May that the summer is approaching and maybe the developer will need a break because, otherwise he/she/they would burn out. Maybe this is what has happened, the frustrating part is the not knowing, not the fact that I spent the money. That was my choice and I had done my research.

 

If the web site suddenly disappears because the developer has not payed his rent then, as far as my investment goes its, you win some you lose some. And lesson learnt.

 

I have only one caveat, and that is that the developer IMO should have the moral compass to inform investors of progress. Be that good news or bad.

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