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kaspern83

Purchasing PRO-ATC/X

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The silence on the ProATC-X forum is doing them no good at all although I have to say they are doing no different to the approach PMDG take in refusing to give continual progress updates.  PMDG of course have a track record on delivering in full when they are good & ready.....

 

I bought this product a while back and am pleased with it.  I'm fairly serious about accuracy (e.g. can't bear to use a fictional repaint or fly a route that doesn't exist in real life) but I don't have the real-life exposure to aviation which would lead me to be upset if an ATC phrase or procedure isn't quite right.  What I do know it does is enable me to fly proper SIDS & STARS, which are correct in the context of the prevailing weather and are consistent with altitude constraints I see on my charts.

 

I fly tubeliners in Europe and ProATC-X works from clearance to arrival gate 99 times out of 100, or better.  I  have never used RC4 or any other ATC add-on but what I can say is that for me, and for the type if flying I do, ProATC-X is a huge improvement over the default FS ATC.

 

If ever they do get it to fully recognise AI traffic and thereafter increase the library of voices, then it will be fantastic.  At present I'd just rate it as good.

 

PS  How many weeks has the PMDG 777 been out?  I see there is thread out there today asking about a Service Pack.  http://forum.avsim.net/topic/421758-release-date-from-the-service-pack/.  Do you think PMDG will reply?

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Simmer 2050 is right. There is a moderator that clearly promoted pro-atc for a period of time.

I also purchased pro-atc and personally use it for each flight. I works for me but the lack of communication and support from the developer, mentioned numerous times is a fact.

I still believe the software will be updated soon. The forum is kept alive and contains interesting threads.

 

Jos

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My own personal evaluation of ProATCX about  8 months ago when I purchased it was that it was still rough, but the devs and their own forums were alive with help and the buzzing talk of future additions and fixes that at that time were being fulfilled.  So for me at that time it was an easy purchase.  Today is almost an opposite comparison with the silence.  I've not given up on it, I don't use it currently but if they do release an update I will be sure to try it out.

 

There are other one man band developers out there making widely used FSX products that have fantastic after sales service or support.  FS2Crew is one of those.  I know everyones personal lives are different and the dev from ProatcX might not have the same amount of time on his hands but even something simple as a post saying all is well and it's still being worked on.  People will say that if nothing has changed since his last post a few months ago then what's the point in posting again.  sometimes it isn't all about having new info, it's about keeping your paying and future customers happy with a product you offer.  Just a small post once a month would do.

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PS How many weeks has the PMDG 777 been out? I see there is thread out there today asking about a Service Pack. http://forum.avsim.net/topic/421758-release-date-from-the-service-pack/. Do you think PMDG will reply?

Certainly not, you kinda learn its not their style, and I got into trouble for voicing an opinion once, but that's another story. However, a representative does pop into the forums from time to time and occasionally they update their Facebook page. In other words they acknowledge they are still alive.

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So, despite all the information you received in that thread, you still purchased the product. And then you said at one point:

SHOW ME WHERE WE ARE OR HAVE BEEN PROTECTING COMMERCIAL INTERESTS. Seems to me that you are disavowing any personal responsibility in YOUR decision to purchase the product and a full 10 months later, you are still accusing AVSIM of somehow forcing you to do so. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Blaming others for your decisions is pretty immature. I would suggest that you have a hair up your rump about AVSIM for whatever reason and 10 months on, you are still harping your inability to take responsibility after having read the good and the bad of the product. Go read our terms of service again. Your access to AVSIM is not a RIGHT. It is a privilege that we give you. If you don't like it here, then don't let the door hit you on your entitled rump. Accuse us of conflicts of interest with commercial interests again, and you won't have a choice.

 

Actually, I purchase this product a couple days after that review, like some of the AVSIM moderators.  I have been patiently waiting for well over a year to receive the product that I was promised and that was described in that review.

 

Yes, I know that the decision to purchase a product based on an AVSIM review was foolish, and I will never repeat that mistake again.  I guess the lesson here is to wait to purchase a product for a year, until the people on the forums have a chance to speak to its weaknesses, provided they are not banned for criticizing a product.

 

But, you have to understand, that at the time I purchased this product, I had been in the flightsim hobby for about six months, and I was still not wise to the ways of Flight simulator developers and reviewers.  I had been involved in a number of other hobbies, where this level of fraud and misrepresentation was not the norm.  I have been purchasing and playing computer games for well over 30 years, starting with Collossal Cave on an IBM mainframe in the 1970s.  In that time, I have been stung about three times, prior to starting flight simming, or about once a decade, on average.

 

I also have been a retailer and understand that when a product does not live up to its claims, the only real alternative is to return the customers' money.  In fact most retailers will accept the return of a product, even if it is perfectly good, with no questions asked.

 

Unfortunately, I came into this hobby with the mistaken belief that developers and reviewers could be trusted.  I now know that this was a very immature attitude because it does not reflect the reality of the state of this market.

 

At the time I purchase the product, there were not a lot of complaints on the forum.  I relied upon an Avsim review.

 

As someone who has been a commercial litigator for over 30 years, I can assure you that caveat emptor is not the law, and never has been the law.  A developer committing fraud is probably a more serious offense than someone making an unauthorized download of a product.  In fact, if you check out the Uniform Commercial Code, you will discover that the rule for goods is "Perfect Tender,"  not substantial performance, but perfect tender. Quite frankly, I am shocked that you apparently approve of fraud and theft and feel no responsibility for insuring that the reviews which appear on your site are honest.

 

If you really want to talk about immaturity, I would suggest that you reread your own post.  Responding to a legitimate criticism by stating "don't let the door hit you own the way out,"  hardly speaks to responsibility and maturity.  In fact, the mature response would have been to state, "We're sorry.  We messed up.  But that reviewer no longer is here."  It's called "taking responsibility."

 

Quite frankly, I expect to be banned for telling you the truth.  But I also thought it was important to remind you that people rely on the review you publish, and that they spend good money on the representations that you make in those reviews.  It is pretty obvious that the way you react to criticism is to have a childlike temper tantrum.

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When it comes to compairing PMDG and ProATC: PMDG has a working ticket system for support. I haven't been able to contact the ProATC developer about the bugs at all. Have been trying for about 4 months now.

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Yes, I know that the decision to purchase a product based on an AVSIM review was foolish, and I will never repeat that mistake again.  I guess the lesson here is to wait to purchase a product for a year, until the people on the forums have a chance to speak to its weaknesses, provided they are not banned for criticizing a product.

 

If I was you, I wouldn't do that.  You'll find pro and anti opinions in these forums on virtually any product available and some of those opinions can be pretty virulent.  For some reason, there's often a fanboi attachment to a particular offering and an equally unreasonable hatred of its competition.  There's been a recent very notable flare up over replacement scenery textures.

 

ATC add-ons get their fair share.  For a start, try starting a thread about ATC SOFTWARE and I guarantee the first thing you'll get is a post recommending VATSIM or similar.  Thereafter you'll get a debate of this sort with ProATC-X the current whipping boy of some very organised and vituperative critics.

 

I repeat, like a lot of add-ons, it's not perfect but it does work and for the type of flying I do, it's much much better than the default ATC. 

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Speaking of reviews in the flightsim world:

 

Many are a bit too positive whether here at AVSIM, or at any other place. You have to read between the lines a lot. It's very rare to read "this program isn't doing what it says it does".

 

Interestingly one of the rather negative reviews here at AVSIM was on "FSCOM 2004", the fs9 attempt at an ATC add-on by the same developer Pointsoft (http://www.avsim.com/pages/0106/FSCOM/FSCOM.htm ).

 

I never considered Chuck's "Quick Fly By" started in June 2012 (http://forum.avsim.net/topic/376905-a-quick-fly-by-of-pro-atc/ ) to be a review, but there was a review of PATC here at AVSIM end of November 2012 (http://forum.avsim.net/page/index.html/_/reviews/pro-atcx-professional-air-traffic-control-r884 ) which was quite positive. Of course, it was followed by controversial comments ranging between "too expensive, no trial version" to "the best thing since sliced bread".

 

In German forums there have been enthusiastic reviews (links in the Pointsoft homepage): SimFlight.de and FS-Magazin. In the latter it even got a "Tipp der Redaktion".

 

So much about reviews.

 

As far as I remember firehawk44, who was quite prominent in the discussion of PATC, was not yet appointed administrator when he started participating in the "Quick Fly By" thread. Perhaps as administrator one should adopt a neutral attitude, because some people might take his/her (positive or negative) opinion as sort of a judgement by AVSIM.

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Hi Tom

 

Please refer to previous thread  that closed by firehawk44 moderator when i complained about ProATC then reopened.

 

And you can also search AVSIm or google for

firehawk44 AND Pro ATC

 

There is also this strangly hugly popular thread started  by a moderator

http://forum.avsim.n...#8208atc&page=1

 

Here is another thread on Pro ATC started by moderator, sounds like a promotion thread to me.

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/386475-proatc-x-update/

at a time when folks like myself knew this elephant was never  gona fly, pls folow this thread to page 2.

 

Here a couple of folks and moderator are praising Pro ATC, months after pretty much all who purchased felt they wasted thier cash

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/397951-my-little-pro-atcx-review/page-1

 

And another one here

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/395005-current-status-of-pro-atc/

 

 

I cant understand where your moderators draw the line on moderating and not being biased to promote a product most users regret purchasing

 

 

Here is the link to my google search in case you want more results

 https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=firehawk44++proatc+avsim+site:forum.avsim.net&biw=1131&bih=573#q=firehawk44++proatc+avsim+site:forum.avsim.net&start=10

 

Last but not least

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/413064-atc-recommendations/

 

 

 

The Pro ATC threds just kept coming up from the dead, and from the comments it apperas to any adullt reading the thread moderators had only good things to say about this terrible product.

 

   

As far as i am concerned commercial and personal intrests dont have to clash if nobody is looking to serve anybody a raw deal.

 

Having been on AVSIM for several years, will say moderating has improved since the days of David Rouch and his school head master style of moderating complete with a whip if you complain about the wrong addon.

 

 

I can understand commercial members pushing thier products and starting new threads about thier product, but moderators pushing dead products is ...., nough said.

 

If the actions of some moderatorsa in all the threads listed is not advertising, then i rest my case.

 

Those who wana make money off us users like PMDG  do so with our pleasure, and we already make enough contributions on the good products to deserve active support from AVSIm in avoiding wasting money on bad products, rather than being told to shut up  

 

Simmer250,

 

I'm very disappointed in this post you made.  Not a single ounce of this holds any merit after a very close fact check by myself and Tom.  You have caused us a tremendous amount of grief researching and hawking over this topic to make sure there was no wrong doing, and I'm in belief that this was all personally driven by your dissatisfaction with the product.  That's not fair to Jim, Tom, AVSIM, and most importantly this community.

 

This will not go unexplained, however, it comes at a price for you.  In exchange for a full public explanation in this thread by Jim (being drafted as I type), which isn't required, but was offered, I'm removing your privileges here at AVSIM for a week and trust you won't do this again.

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Hi Tom

 

Please refer to previous thread  that closed by firehawk44 moderator when i complained about ProATC then reopened.

 

And you can also search AVSIm or google for

firehawk44 AND Pro ATC

 

There is also this strangly hugly popular thread started  by a moderator

http://forum.avsim.n...#8208atc&page=1

 

Here is another thread on Pro ATC started by moderator, sounds like a promotion thread to me.

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/386475-proatc-x-update/

at a time when folks like myself knew this elephant was never  gona fly, pls folow this thread to page 2.

 

Here a couple of folks and moderator are praising Pro ATC, months after pretty much all who purchased felt they wasted thier cash

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/397951-my-little-pro-atcx-review/page-1

 

And another one here

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/395005-current-status-of-pro-atc/

 

 

I cant understand where your moderators draw the line on moderating and not being biased to promote a product most users regret purchasing

 

 

Here is the link to my google search in case you want more results

 https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=firehawk44++proatc+avsim+site:forum.avsim.net&biw=1131&bih=573#q=firehawk44++proatc+avsim+site:forum.avsim.net&start=10

 

Last but not least

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/413064-atc-recommendations/

 

 

 

The Pro ATC threds just kept coming up from the dead, and from the comments it apperas to any adullt reading the thread moderators had only good things to say about this terrible product.

 

   

As far as i am concerned commercial and personal intrests dont have to clash if nobody is looking to serve anybody a raw deal.

 

Having been on AVSIM for several years, will say moderating has improved since the days of David Rouch and his school head master style of moderating complete with a whip if you complain about the wrong addon.

 

 

I can understand commercial members pushing thier products and starting new threads about thier product, but moderators pushing dead products is ...., nough said.

 

If the actions of some moderatorsa in all the threads listed is not advertising, then i rest my case.

 

Those who wana make money off us users like PMDG  do so with our pleasure, and we already make enough contributions on the good products to deserve active support from AVSIm in avoiding wasting money on bad products, rather than being told to shut up  

First of all, I became a volunteer member of the AVSIM Staff around September 2012 so any posts prior to that were made as a member of AVSIM.

 

I remember when ProATC-X first came out and there was a promo for it on the AVSIM front page.  Everyone was talking about it but were fearful of purchasing it.  So I was the first one to say I'll be the guinea pig and check it out for everyone and immediately purchased the product.  A day later, Chock came on board with me and did a complete review of the product so everyone was asking Chock and me about the program and its capabilities.  Does it do this?  Does it do that?  Chock and I were quite busy for awhile!!  I remember having crashes and issues with it at first and reported them.  I do like the product and have stated so several times when someone wants to know whether the product is worth purchasing or not.  FWIW, again this was all done mostly before I became a volunteer here.  There have been some subsequent posts I have made but, as indicated in each post, I told my likes and dislikes.  Because I was the first guinea pig to purchase the product and answered a lot of questions about the product, people remembered that and would PM me or start a topic asking for updates or questions about the product.  I do not know how one can determine I was promoting this product.  I'm not being paid by the developer and never said anything that was not true.  There are a lot of reviews done here at AVSIM on products and people come to AVSIM volunteers or presumed "experts" for opinions on products.  There is a lot of frustration from some members as the product use to be updated weekly, then monthly, and now there has been no word from the developer since sometime earlier this year.  As far as I'm concerned the product is finished but some individuals want ProATC-X to see AI work like the FSX ATC but better, work completely with every commercial weather program and the ability to communicate with the AI "pilots" (IMHO, some of these are totally outrageous desires).  In one post I stated this would probably be impossible for the ProATC developer to do as it would be messing with the FSX code which the developer cannot do (or that's what I think anyway). 

 

I'm a little upset about your complaint as I thought I was just being helpful.  I think that's the spirit here at AVSIM, to help others.  I presume, in your eyes, I should not have responded to any of the ProATC-X posts or I should have posted only negative posts about the product.  I think that's what you can't handle is someone saying positive things about the product and you think the product is unfinished and not very good at all or the developer isn't listening to you and that really frustrates you.  I've seen this happening with the PMDG777 product too.  People coming on and saying that it crashes their system and complains about the product.  Then I come on and tell them that thousands of others have gotten it to work and there must be something wrong with the installation.  I think individuals like you are bent at tearing down a product because they believe the price was too high or they could not get it to work properly and the developer didn't listen to them so they are going to only write negative things about the product.  He/she will show those developers!!! We have a lot of older citizens like me as members here (do not know your age though) and many old members remember how they worked with product makers before the invention of computers and they were able to make the salesman or product maker listen but they aren't able to do so now with electronic software developers.

 

I apologize to AVSIM for any embarrassment I might have caused.  I am doing everything I can to promote the goodness of AVSIM and not trying to bring it down.  For instance, I have received a lot of favorable comments in the CTD forum for staying with the member having a problem until the problem is fixed and many have stated this is totally unbelievable and appreciated.  I truly get a lot of satisfaction that I have helped someone fix a problem.  I believe our whole membership should have the same goals whether working as a volunteer or a member.

 

Best regards,

Jim

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Jim, you're good in my book =) although I am a bit disappointed with what is happening over at pro-atc/x forums. Eagerly waiting for next update.

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Greetings

Isn't it rather amazing the angst that this program has caused? Even on an unrelated forum. When I first became interested and looked in on their forum, it was like a war zone. My guess is that developing an ATC program is quite difficult. It seems to interact with a great many modules in the simulator. Having said that, if an individual charges for a product or service, then that individual has a responsibility to his/her customers. Whether the product is developed by an individual or a large shop is immaterial. If you give it away, then caveat emptor. This was not the case.

 

I don't think the vendor has a responsibility to produce this or that at this or that time; unless that is what they have committed to. But nature does not tolerate a vacuum. Eventually customers will get the impression (almost always wrong) that they have been had. I think it would be  helpful if the developer just said yes the product will be updated and released, we just don't know when. But here is what it will do when it gets released. Cool eh? That would probably satisfy a lot of folks.

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Greetings

Isn't it rather amazing the angst that this program has caused? Even on an unrelated forum. When I first became interested and looked in on their forum, it was like a war zone. My guess is that developing an ATC program is quite difficult. It seems to interact with a great many modules in the simulator. Having said that, if an individual charges for a product or service, then that individual has a responsibility to his/her customers. Whether the product is developed by an individual or a large shop is immaterial. If you give it away, then caveat emptor. This was not the case.

 

I don't think the vendor has a responsibility to produce this or that at this or that time; unless that is what they have committed to. But nature does not tolerate a vacuum. Eventually customers will get the impression (almost always wrong) that they have been had. I think it would be  helpful if the developer just said yes the product will be updated and released, we just don't know when. But here is what it will do when it gets released. Cool eh? That would probably satisfy a lot of folks.

 

Unless you are Bill Gates with dozens of talented programmers on your payroll with different levels of quality assurance, you cannot guarantee any add-on will live-up to the hype.

 

That's why most aircraft are sold via the Flight 1, 30 days money back guarantee wrapper, that's why VoxATC, FsCaptain and our own product have a Demo.

 

You have piece of mind and can focus on development, instead of spending your time on forums fighting off those who think (and often for good reason) "the've been had".

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@Firehawk

 

Don't worry about it, I never took your involvement as being other than intended helpfulness.

 

Anyway, anyone with any sense reads around and then makes THEIR OWN decision.  

 

We've all bought some turkeys I expect - I have not 1 but 2 from the same publisher (who I won't name) that I couldn't resist in a sale, flew once each and then uninstalled.  Yes, fooled not once but twice.  I didn't try to hold anyone else responsible.  If I was to start a thread about those products now, probably 70% of posters would agree with me but the other 30% would be passionate supporters and a fight would start.  It's all a matter of personal opinion.

 

Even an official review is only somebody's opinion, to be taken into account but relied upon slavishly at your own peril.

 

And I'm like you, I like this product as it stands.  If others want to use RC4 or VoxATC, I'm very happy for them.

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This is quite a shocking thread now, from so many angles.

 

I certainly do not think Jim (Firehawk44) should have been made to feel the way he was in this thread.   It's been like a personal witch hunt , trying to lynch a guy just because he liked a product that some people didn't like.  Really quite shameful that some people put pressure on Firehawk44, a volunteer, giving his free time to contribute to AVSIM's running, to have to spend his day looking at all these ridiculous claims and responding to them.

 

Whatever happened to personal accountability? ............ You guys crying because you bought this product and do not like it, and wish to blame some AVSIM staff who do enjoy it, are just childlike beyond belief IMHO.........

 

We all read reviews on things, then make a purchasing choice based on our own judgment and findings......... to blame (and even talk about fraud and legal action) AVSIM staff because you bought something and didn't like it, is in all honesty comical.

 

This comment, from "High Plains Flyer", to Tom Allensworth, literally knocks me off my chair :-

 

 

 

 Quite frankly, I am shocked that you apparently approve of fraud and theft and feel no responsibility for insuring that the reviews which appear on your site are honest.

 

 

@ High Plains Flyer - Have you any idea how ridiculously dellusional you are?...... You refer to some reviews and opinions made by people, as "Fraud" because you don't agree with them.

 

If you represent corporate litigation in the US, then it's clear to see why the state of litigation culture in the US has become so bad; ridiculed outside the US (don't worry guys, the UK is only one step behind).

 

We've all wasted money within this hobby ...... but 'wasted' is a subjective term.   To call it fraud or to try to apply legal context to "buying a crap product" just shows laughable immaturity and shallowness.

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I just came on to this thread and wanted to say that I purchased Pro Atc x based on the reviews here on Avsim and am quite happy with it. I allso own radar contact, PFE, and vox atc.  the only atc program I use is Pro Atc X. It  is working for me as I am expecting it. Not dissilusioned at all, thanks to any one who took the time to write here his oppinions .

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The vocal minority always makes the worst out of eveything. thats just how it works There are many of us who bought ProATC and is quite happy about the way it works today. All my commercial flying is done with ProATC and it has yet to quit on me or giving me any bugs that I can't move around. Yes, I look forward to a new update wih new features, I look forward doing more GA VFR flights and AI control, but as with all software, things take time, especially when you are a one man developing team, but I knew this when I bought it, and I accepted it. To me, ProATC delivered what I expected at the time I bought it. Satisfied customers will never be outnumbered but always be outgunned when it comes to forumrants:-)

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@ High Plains Flyer - Have you any idea how ridiculously dellusional you are?...... You refer to some reviews and opinions made by people, as "Fraud" because you don't agree with them.

 

Fraud, simply put, is lying.  If you say a product does X, Y and Z, and it does not do X, Y and Z, you have committed fraud.

 

The solution here is simple.  You simply do not state things which are not true.  You do not make claims about a product which are demonstrably false.  You tell the truth.  This is one of those basic Sunday school rules of life.

 

Whether a product functions as promised is not a matter of opinion.  It is a readily demonstrable fact.  It seems that many people here are unable to distinguish between facts and opinions.

 

What I find ridiculous about this community that people get ripped off, and other people like you try to shrug of the fraud.  In fact, you go beyond that.  You defend the fraudsters and attack their victims.  Blaming the victims really is quite shameful.  I just don't understand why you love fraud and theft so much.  You must be a Republican!

 

This state of affairs seems to be unique to the flightsim community.  Again, one does not find such widespread acceptance of fraud in other hobbies and other gaming communities.  Maybe that's why fraud seems to be such a major part of this hobby.

 

Of course, their are good developers who seem to take their reputations quite seriously and do not misrepresent their products.  I am talking about companies like Aerosoft, PMDG, and ORBX, among others.  I really have not seen these guys put out a product which does not do what it promises to do.

 

When people like you go beyond accepting fraud, and start promoting it as well, the entire hobby suffers.  I really don't think asking developers and reviewers to tell the truth is asking too much.

 

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I'm not getting involved with the product discussion, as I dont have it.

 

I would though, as a long time Avsim member, like to show a HUGE vote of confidence and support to Jim (firehawk44).

 

Jim, IMO you are one of the finest moderators this forum has seen in my time here.  Both your patients (sic) and fairness are, IMO second to none!

 

Thank you, and ALL the Avsim team for their continued dedication.

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This is quite a shocking thread now, from so many angles.

 

I certainly do not think Jim (Firehawk44) should have been made to feel the way he was in this thread.   It's been like a personal witch hunt , trying to lynch a guy just because he liked a product that some people didn't like.  Really quite shameful that some people put pressure on Firehawk44, a volunteer, giving his free time to contribute to AVSIM's running, to have to spend his day looking at all these ridiculous claims and responding to them.

 

Whatever happened to personal accountability? ............ You guys crying because you bought this product and do not like it, and wish to blame some AVSIM staff who do enjoy it, are just childlike beyond belief IMHO.........

 

We all read reviews on things, then make a purchasing choice based on our own judgment and findings......... to blame (and even talk about fraud and legal action) AVSIM staff because you bought something and didn't like it, is in all honesty comical.

 

This comment, from "High Plains Flyer", to Tom Allensworth, literally knocks me off my chair :-

 

 

 

 

@ High Plains Flyer - Have you any idea how ridiculously dellusional you are?...... You refer to some reviews and opinions made by people, as "Fraud" because you don't agree with them.

 

If you represent corporate litigation in the US, then it's clear to see why the state of litigation culture in the US has become so bad; ridiculed outside the US (don't worry guys, the UK is only one step behind).

 

We've all wasted money within this hobby ...... but 'wasted' is a subjective term.   To call it fraud or to try to apply legal context to "buying a crap product" just shows laughable immaturity and shallowness.

Sorry, but if threads get shocking, it's also because of replies like this one. I purchased pro-atc since the beginning and use it on every flight. Out of interest, I follow all the threads regarding this software. Am I not aloud to comment anymore? Do you need to bash everyone because of one persons way-over-the-top reaction? Are you a Pro-Atc user?

Let's all calm down and do some flying. That's what this hobby is all about.

 

Jos

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@ High Plains Flyer - Have you any idea how ridiculously dellusional you are?...... You refer to some reviews and opinions made by people, as "Fraud" because you don't agree with them.

 

Fraud, simply put, is lying.  If you say a product does X, Y and Z, and it does not do X, Y and Z, you have committed fraud.

 

The solution here is simple.  You simply do not state things which are not true.  You do not make claims about a product which are demonstrably false.  You tell the truth.  This is one of those basic Sunday school rules of life.

 

Whether a product functions as promised is not a matter of opinion.  It is a readily demonstrable fact.  It seems that many people here are unable to distinguish between facts and opinions.

 

What I find ridiculous about this community that people get ripped off, and other people like you try to shrug of the fraud.  In fact, you go beyond that.  You defend the fraudsters and attack their victims.  Blaming the victims really is quite shameful.  I just don't understand why you love fraud and theft so much.  You must be a Republican!

 

This state of affairs seems to be unique to the flightsim community.  Again, one does not find such widespread acceptance of fraud in other hobbies and other gaming communities.  Maybe that's why fraud seems to be such a major part of this hobby.

 

Of course, their are good developers who seem to take their reputations quite seriously and do not misrepresent their products.  I am talking about companies like Aerosoft, PMDG, and ORBX, among others.  I really have not seen these guys put out a product which does not do what it promises to do.

 

When people like you go beyond accepting fraud, and start promoting it as well, the entire hobby suffers.

 

Can you tell us what "product functions" was promoted to get you to buy it and then you discovered it wasn't in it?

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Can you tell us what "product functions" was promoted to get you to buy it and then you discovered it wasn't in it?

 

The answer really can be found in Agutz's March 19 post:  http://forum.avsim.net/topic/397951-my-little-pro-atcx-review/page-5

 

 

 

@ Simmer 2050:

"The future of addons in such a small community may yet be as ProATC and CaptainSim are doing, customers fund the developement, starting from beta stage. for this reason i purchased ProATC, to get another ATC option, but still a long way from installing it."

 

I like that statement. This may be the way development is going.

Bute there is a difference how CS and ProATC are doing it: Cs's 777 first release was clearly marked as being beta while ProATC from its beginning (June 2012) was advertised as being a fully developed ATC program. As a customer I would like to know at what development state an add-on is I'm buying.

 

I bought the Captain Sim 777 when it was offered in beta.  It did not work very well at first, but has improved over time.  (It still is flawed.) But that was the deal I made.  Captain Sim offered a significant discount and let everyone know they were getting a beta.  I took a chance knowing I was taking a chance.  I have no beef with Captain Sim.  I basically got what I was promised.

 

Black Box has been offering Airbus models in beta.  Because of their past difficulties, I do not trust them to deliver a fully functioning product.  So I have not purchased their product.  They disclosed that it was in beta, and I chose not to take them up on their offer, yet.  In this case, no deal was made.  I have no beef with them.

 

Similarly, Blueprint does not sell high quality sceneries.  However, they are pretty upfront about telling you this.  And the price reflects the lower quality.  So, no beef with them either.

 

The problems with pro-ATC could have been avoided easily if Pointsoft had disclosed that this product was a work in progress.  That's all;  if it's not finished, just say so.  That way potential customers can decide whether they want to hand out their money.  Perhaps some will not, knowing that they are dealing with a new and untested developer who does not have a track record of delivering a functioning product.  However, this product was represented as a finished product.  And it was priced as a finished product.

 

There is no fraud if there is full disclosure and everyone tells the truth.

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The answer really can be found in Agutz's March 19 post:  http://forum.avsim.net/topic/397951-my-little-pro-atcx-review/page-5

 

 

 

I bought the Captain Sim 777 when it was offered in beta.  It did not work very well at first, but has improved over time.  (It still is flawed.) But that was the deal I made.  Captain Sim offered a significant discount and let everyone know they were getting a beta.  I took a chance knowing I was taking a chance.  I have no beef with Captain Sim.  I basically got what I was promised.

 

Black Box has been offering Airbus models in beta.  Because of their past difficulties, I do not trust them to deliver a fully functioning product.  So I have not purchased their product.  They disclosed that it was in beta, and I chose not to take them up on their offer, yet.  In this case, no deal was made.  I have no beef with them.

 

Similarly, Blueprint does not sell high quality sceneries.  However, they are pretty upfront about telling you this.  And the price reflects the lower quality.  So, no beef with them either.

 

The problems with pro-ATC could have been avoided easily if Pointsoft had disclosed that this product was a work in progress.  That's all;  if it's not finished, just say so.  That way potential customers can decide whether they want to hand out their money.  Perhaps some will not, knowing that they are dealing with a new and untested developer who does not have a track record of delivering a functioning product.  However, this product was represented as a finished product.  And it was priced as a finished product.

 

There is no fraud if there is full disclosure and everyone tells the truth.

You are still not being specific. Please, just give one feature that was promised in the features list page and wasn't in the product you bought. I can answer it, None. There has always been an updated features list.

 

As for CS 777, please don't go there for your argument's sake. I just have one word about it, VNAV.

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High Plains Flyer, on 25 Sept 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

There is no fraud if there is full disclosure and everyone tells the truth.

Repeatedly accusing us of fraud, implying we are lying, has just got this guy banned. And now this thread is closed.

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