Asiana B-777 Reported Down At KSFO

[Don t moderate me this way 882]

_{SF probe brings questions over auto speed controls:}

 

_{http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SAN_FRANCISCO_AIRLINER_CRASH?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-07-10-09-24-46}

 

_{a few more details released by NTSB and reported by AP.}

 

 

Thanks for the HU but some of the quotes in the linked article make me wonder:

 

"There is no way to get from a normal airspeed and normal position at 500 feet to an abnormally slow airspeed at 300 feet unless there wasn't enough thrust either deliberately or inadvertently," he said.

 

The Asiana wasn't stabilized at 500 ft. Its descent rate was so high, that throttles probably were idling anyway. Add 5 sec for spooling up and another 5 sec to stop the descent ...

[Murmur 3,940]

One can also wonder about a 787 with its carbon fiber fuselage (probably stronger?)

 

Interesting remark. A CFRP structure can be made stronger and lighter than an aluminium alloy, but CFRP has a lower toughness ( = lower energy absorbed before fracturing, i.e. it's more brittle). Toughness is an important property in case of crashes. I think a CFRP structure would end up being heavier, if it has to have the same thoughness of a metallic one.

 

That being said, the actual values of the 787 fuselage toughness and resistance to impact are probably only known to Boeing engineers.

 

 

Marco

[3Green 80]

Very sad and unfortunate accident.  I suspect this accident will be another example of pilot losing situation awareness caused by automation dependency.  Both pilots had thousands of hours flight time.  To be foiled by the auto throttle switch in the "armed" position and assuming the speed is being "looked" after should be another loud wakeup call to the industry, how automation is eroding pilot skills.  

Boeing still continues to build aircraft with control columns for one reason, to aid the pilot in aircraft attitude awareness.  Pilots landing aircraft with the aid of auto throttles should always have one hand resting on the throttles to aid in speed control awareness. Airbus is another story.

During my pilot training at a very young age of 16, my instructor once said  "Always be 10 minutes ahead of your aircraft, or you'll be a dead man one day".   I still use that thinking in everything I do today, and it starts with these words; "What if...."

Maybe it's time to completely remove the pilot from cockpit and let automation fly?  Scary thought, but that day will arrive.

Sincere condolences to all the families.

RJ

[Drumcode 1,892]

CNN, Fox News and others are pretty much a disgrace to news reporting worldwide.

[kaspern83 77]

CNN, Fox News and others are pretty much a disgrace to news reporting worldwide.

 

Welcome to Murica'!

[voske 34]

Interesting e-mail from the FO of the United flight holding short of 28L: http://www.curacaochronicle.com/aviation/email-from-a-united-crew-holding-short-of-the-runway-as-the-asiana-b-777-approached/

[ESzczesniak 128]

 

 

One can also wonder about a 787 with its carbon fiber fuselage (probably stronger?)

 

This is semantics, but the enginerd in me is coming out.  Carbon fiber is stronger per unit weight.  Certainly when it comes to aircraft where lighter is more efficient (i.e. less fuel), I would expect the 787 carbon fiber is designed to meet similar strength criteria (ala 767 or something) at reduced weight rather than identical weight at increased strength.

[ichundu 10]

Rare video footage of the wreckage. Notice at around 1:35 there is an Asiana T7 taking off in the background

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cKqion6SLU

 

Edit: another one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLwTeoa3WzA

Edited July 10, 2013 by ichundu

[Murmur 3,940]

Rare video footage of the wreckage. Notice at around 1:35 there is an Asian T7 taking off in the background

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cKqion6SLU

 

Looking at the interior shots of the cabin, it's amazing that all the people inside the aircraft survived.

[ichundu 10]

Looking at the interior shots of the cabin, it's amazing that all the people inside the aircraft survived.

unfortunately 2 have died, but yeah i agree, considering the severity of the crash

[Murmur 3,940]

unfortunately 2 have died, but yeah i agree, considering the severity of the crash

 

I know, but those two were thrown out of the aircraft after the impact.

[ichundu 10]

I know, but those two were thrown out of the aircraft after the impact.

i think the ntsb chairman said during the briefing yesterday the victims were on the plane at the end of the cabin which was the section that received the greater damage. also the injured were mainly seated in that section.

 

also in the link that was provided earlier on the thread where the pilot of the united 885 that witnessed the event said the people who were thrown out of the plane were walking and were alive, so i think the victims were inside the plane.

 

anyway i stand to be corrected.

[FLEX1978 373]

No, the victims where thrown from the plane, one of them was run over by a fire truck. Apparently flight attendants where also ejected but survived with severe injuries.

[ichundu 10]

 

 

No, the victims where thrown from the plane, one of them was run over by a fire truck.

 

well thanks for the correction, i have missed this part. is this official??? wow 

can someone provide a link?

[Guest]

It's pilot error (or I should say pilots errors as they will all be held responsible) ... but I agree, it's a case of the pilots not taking the correct steps to transition from an automated ILS approach to manual approach.  Blaming A/T isn't going to shift any responsibility from any of the pilots.  Also agree that commercial flight will eventually be fully automated, just as driving a car will eventually be fully automated -- 100's of pages of checklist just opens the door for the potential of a human mistake. 

 

But I also wonder how much psychological "pressure" comes from fellow pilots and even the airline itself to NOT implement correct safety procedures because there would be costs associated with doing so (more fuel used, and delays associated with calling a Go-Around)?

 

I'm assuming all events get logged and reported (real commercial pilots need to step in here to validate/correct my assumptions), this "pilot in training" probably wanted move too being fully qualified for the 777 (assuming the potential for financial increase/benefits and/or other opportunities).  One more psychological process that could impair good judgment.  Conversely, how are pilots ever graduated/promoted if the process itself could introduce safety concerns?  Again, would love to here from real world professional commercial pilots on this.