As an instructor with about 1200hrs dual given I have found that people who come in for instruction with a load of flight sim time do no better than people with zero flight sim exposure. In fact frequently the flight sim people have to unlearn habits they picked up with using flight sim. You simply cant learn anything about aircraft control (other than this makes the aircraft go up, down, left, or right) from flight sim. There is no realistic feedback or feeling from a CH Yoke or any similar product. Now when it comes to procedures that really are just concepts like instrument work flight sim is fantastic. You can also certainly use it to illustrate other concepts (like airport markings, traffic patterns, and other general aviation stuff) successfully. The problem with many students I have had who use flight sim a bunch is that they only partially understand things or the frequently misunderstand things learned in flight sim. (I would rather teach a person to fly from scratch than to have to un-teach a person a bunch of bad habits)I think the reason real world pilots prefer 2D panels is because we know you are not going to learn jack from looking around at the VC. That kind of learning must be developed from many hours of hands on time in the cockpit. The 2D panel support comes from the fact that developing and maintaining a good instrument scan along with solid instrument procedures can be done very well with a flight sim (in addition to real world training and experience) and for this skill the 2D panel best copies a real world panel. My thoughts anyway. Enough of that I have to go do a real world flight

These 2d vs. vc debates get going every few weeks. They always accomplish two things:-they usually get heated :)-they always show that enough people use either, and that neither side can be right

1000 TT SEL/MEL/INST/COMM. Time in 150/152/172/182/310/340, various piper singles and twins, King Air B90.I have zero problem flying patterns or shooting approaches in 2D since it provides the same range of viewpoints as does 3D. I have to snap to those view points rather than pan to them but so what?It's just a personal preference and you are off base suggesting that those who don't share your preferences aren't real world pilots.

>> that ones has to pan in either is a>limitation of the computer use. Fact of the matter is that a>VC is no better at projecting a realistic view out the window>than a 2D panel. Put three 2D views on three monitors and you>have a much better view than a far sitting VC could ever hope>to display...nuff said.I don't want to get into a heated debate here becuase as I stated earlier I happen to like and use both the 2D panels and the VC regularly but I have to comment on these notions that there is something fundamentally flawed about representing the cockpit as a 3 dimensional space on a one dimensional viewing device (monitor). By that logic, one could also say that its ludicrous to use 3D models for the planes and other objects in the sim. Might as well just go back to lovely sprites instead. The "fact" is that panning around the VC is a perfectly reasonable and convincing (and remarkably natural feeling) representation of swivelling our heads in the actual cockpit of a real plane. It almost seems to me that the real problem here is some people have difficulty interpreting 3D representations of space on a monitor while others (like myself) do not. Of course, if you happen to have half a dozen monitors kicking around you can physically build yourself a 3D environment in your office, but for the rest of us the virtual cockpit is a perfectly workable solution.

I respect your opinion Aca_Dia... I don't agree with it but I respect it....:-roll All my flight training came at a reduced cost thanks to Flight Simulator...:-outta

Mikkel, everyone get's heated about this issue because this has been talked about so much in the past. Microsoft reads these threads and for those of us that like progress in Flight Simulator don't want to see a technology taking a back seat because a few people are resistant to change...I myself have to take a stand on this one in hopes that Microsoft keeps pushing the envelope to where we're all happy. This is a very important issue to discuss as well as getting to the root of the problem as to why so many want to stick with static views. If we can narrow down what bothers people about VC's, we can improve on the technology's short comings and move forward.If we say nothing in defense of this feature, people like Geofa, Randy, and others will end up having the option taken away due to lack of support.:-bang I can't let that happen without speaking out....:-samurai

Craig I'll make this a double post for you...Microsoft reads these threads and for those of us that like progress in Flight Simulator don't want to see a technology taking a back seat because a few people are resistant to change...I myself have to take a stand on this one in hopes that Microsoft keeps pushing the envelope to where we're all happy. This is a very important issue to discuss as well as getting to the root of the problem as to why so many want to stick with static views. If we can narrow down what bothers people about VC's, we can improve on the technology's short comings and move forward.If we say nothing in defense of this feature, people like Geofa, Randy, and others will end up having the option taken away due to lack of support.:-bang I can't let that happen without speaking out....:-samurai

Dillon, I understand and respect your viewpoint. I also, more importantly realize that not all people fly in the VC panel, but I don't go around telling them that it is wrong. I too want microsoft to put out a more realistic game next time around.

Sorry -but I think this has gotten really out of hand.The original post asked which RW pilot's prefered-2d or 3d.From those RW pilot's that responded it appears that 2d in prefered-at least in this post-there is obviously nothing scienfic about this.A simple question turned into a debate of merits-which is fine.However-I haven't seen one post from those that prefer 2d that 3d not be developed or taken away from the sim-in fact quite the contrary.I have however-seen those that favor the 3d ask that the 2d part be permanently removed-including you...Your quote:"If we say nothing in defense of this feature, people like Geofa, Randy, and others will end up having the option taken away due to lack of support.:-bang "is certainly not substantiated at all by any of the above posts. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

My point was that there are more than enough people in either camp so that it would not make sense to remove either option. These threads tend to go roughly 50-50. Actually a lot of us 2d flyers are worried that someday our option will disappear. Seeing a handful of newer addons coming in with no 2d panel at all is a little scary. Obviously we never know, but I would be shocked if VCs ever disappeared from flightsim. Hopefully anyone reading these threads sees that there is no justification in removing either option. I would hope we see both options on future versions of flightsims.

"as getting to the root of the problem "What problem? Some of us like 2D - some like VC - no problem unless you're too shortsighted to allow that other people's preferences aren't the same as yours.Dave

Where did Geofa , Randy, and the others say that 3d should be taken away?I did see you and others mention taking away 2d....http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

Geofa once the tone of this thread got to a certain point in became apparent the opinions where one sided...Some people were actually stating they never use the VC. If I was a developer designing the upgrade to my title, I'm not going to include a feature no one cares to use. This is so far from the case concerning Virtual Cockpits. I don't like 2D views like you don't like 3D. The day I jump into a real plane and have big oversized cardboard panels for my 360, 90, 270, and 180% view then I may reconsider 2D panels.... As things are now I site in an aircraft with windows and I'm glad Microsoft has done the best they can to reproduce that environment....

The difference is that I and the others that prefer 2d never stated that 3d should be removed or not developed for the future. You did state that 2d should be removed.That is a big difference...as far as opinions being one sided-isn't that why they are called "opinions"? http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

If you don't use something at all what's that implying??? You may not have said 'take the 3D cockpit away' but I did say that about the 2D panel and I'm standing on it... We need to figure out how to solve the problem that's causing so many of you to stick with old technology and resolve those issues so we all can move forward together... :-cool I'm done talking about it, I've said all I care to say about the subject. :-smooch