PMDG 777: Miscellaneous Questions

[scandinavian13 5,192]

I don't think it would be that big an issue, if you're going to use a chart, you're going to download it and print it off anyway, so putting it into the aircraft would be no more taxing than printing provided the conversion wasn't time consuming.

 

If that works for you, then great, but that won't work for many people.

That data is going to need to be in there before the sim is started, so you'd need to:

 

-Download every possible chart for the airport you're flying into

(you don't know what approach you're going to get assigned, and you don't know if the weather is going to change drastically in the routinely longer legs of the 777)

-Convert all of those charts

-Put them in the proper folder

...all before even starting the sim.

 

In the case of IAD, that's 18 charts for the ILSs alone.  Add in the RNAVs and you have 11 more.  Then, the next time you fly into IAD, you'll have to double check you have the right charts, because you're not going to want to download them again and convert them.

 

If you don't mind the repetition of that task, then you have more patience than most, but in the end, you're going to blow a lot of time.

 

 

 

I'll put it this way:

If it came down to "in order to use the EFB's charting feature, you have to do all this on your own," there's no way in [heck] that I'd end up using it.  Using an in-sim EFB for charts is somewhat of an insane proposition anyway (too small and impractical to use), so I'd end up using the EFB I use when I fly RW anyway.

 

Why?

 

Because it's all there, right now, with current charts - guaranteed.  No work necessary.  I already have to go find a current route, load the plane, and get a good fuel plan before departing.  I don't need to add the logistics of dealing with charts and currency to that.

[James Bennett 52]

I'll put it this way:

If it came down to "in order to use the EFB's charting feature, you have to do all this on your own," there's no way in [heck] that I'd end up using it.  Using an in-sim EFB for charts is somewhat of an insane proposition anyway (too small and impractical to use), so I'd end up using the EFB I use when I fly RW anyway.

 

Why?

 

Because it's all there, right now, with current charts - guaranteed.  No work necessary.  I already have to go find a current route, load the plane, and get a good fuel plan before departing.  I don't need to add the logistics of dealing with charts and currency to that.

 

I still manually download all my charts anyway, i don't own a second pc, laptop or tablet pc so I have to print them all off to use them. I'm sure this is true of a vast percentage of the potential customers of the PMDG 777, so it's not any more work than it would otherwise be. I assume it is too much effort for you because you don't print them off and display them on your own EFB program running alongside FSX? This isn't the case for a large amount of people so to say it's useless putting the EFB in the PMDG 777 is a worthless statement.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

I'm sure this is true of a vast percentage of the potential customers of the PMDG 777, so it's not any more work than it would otherwise be.

 

It would be, though.

 

It's not:

<Click on Each Chart to Open in New Window> - repeated task

(don't even have to download/open as a separate process)

<Click Print for Each> - repeated task

(The printer then manages that queue - it's handling that load - not forcing you to wait for each to print)

 

While it's printing, I can then launch the sim and let it do its thing in the background.

 

It's:

<Click on Each Chart to Download> - repeated task

(Must wait for the download, though the downloads may overlap, your download speed is cut with each)

<Open Each Chart to Save As Different File Type> - repeated task

(Must wait for Each Chart to Convert Before Moving On)

<Move All Charts to Required Folder> - bulk task

 

All of this must be complete by the time I go to load the sim.

 

...later on, you must either waste a ton of energy redoing that task, or develop some form of organization for yourself to notify you that the chart is still current, or is expired.  I imaging you waste a ton of paper by simply printing out new charts every time.  That, or you end up just flying with an expired chart until you think to print a new one.

[James Bennett 52]

I'd be perfectly happy doing that. Isn't that hard. Download speeds are good here and a batch conversion tool supplied by PMDG would facilitate fast converting. You could just do it a few days before a flight like I do, i'm sure you aren't busy every waking minute of the day.

 

I suppose you also have a program installed to fly the plane for you while you're in another part of your house doing these critical time consuming tasks you seem to have?

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

Download speeds are good here and a batch conversion tool supplied by PMDG would facilitate fast converting.

 

Your argument hinges on them going out of the way to provide this for you, or somehow make this a requirement to use this feature.  I really don't see them stepping aside from what they're good at to try and code a batch converter so that you can use a marginalized chart, on a tiny screen, in the sim.  Additionally, they've mentioned that they will not make a feature dependent on buying another program to make it work.

 

 

 

You could just do it a few days before a flight like I do, i'm sure you aren't busy every waking minute of the day.

 

This is correct, but it will still take more time to download and convert charts, while ensuring efforts are not duplicated, than I'm willing to give.  Additionally, even if one were okay with the duplication of effort, it would still take more time to download, convert and move than it would to click print and move on.

 

If you're looking for me to provide proof, consider this:

It is legal for a GA pilot to print off charts from FAA.gov and use them.  The success of ForeFlight, Garmin Pilot, and other pilot apps providing chart reference indicates that this method is undesirable, however.  Even if they don't print the charts out, they likely subscribe to either NACO or Jepp services to deliver new ones to keep them up to date.  Ask any GA pilot what they do.  I'd argue you're not going to hear very many who use your method.

 

Why?  Workload.  It's easier to pay someone else to keep that info sorted for them.

 

 

 

I suppose you also have a program installed to fly the plane for you while you're in another part of your house doing these critical time consuming tasks you seem to have?

 

Yes.  The autopilot.  I actually get quite a lot done while at cruise.

 

To put it a different way, I could just as easily hand-copy my charts in Adobe Illustrator and dump them into some type of acceptable format, because I have the time some days.  I just feel that my time is better spent doing other things...like not having to bother with charts.

 

That's the whole premise of a trade-based society:

People trade for what they either have no time for, or prefer not to do.

Disclaimer:

My primary purpose at one of my jobs is to reduce duplication of efforts, and make the business more efficient.

 

I get paid to get upset about redundancies and eliminate them.

 

In this case, however, I wouldn't be getting paid to deal with this issue.

[aceridgey 330]

Could we perhaps discuss the chart issue on another thread it has the risk of going off track  

[sidh 29]

2. Nope. PMDG have said numerous times that they don't want a "glorified JPEG viewer". They have said occasionally it may be included later but licensing the data remains a significant problem...this may have changed and would be a nice surprise for release.

 

 

PMDG T777 and NO EFB? Are you kidding me? That was unexpected .. Let us hope they make it !

[EGLL77W 1,508]

EFB won't add complete realism anyway. Even the rich airlines like Emirates are getting their new 300ER's and LR's without EFB's and using the portable EFB option. Soon to be iPad for charts once they get the approval. The Boeing version is a pretty expensive customer option.

 

Assuming TopCat add the 777 which I highly doubt they won't - will be a fairly realistic piece of software to use alongside, just like it is now with other addons such as the NGX.

 

The LIDO charts look excellent on the real EFB I must say - they're even customisable! Makes Jeppesen look like they're still stuck in the 1990's (-;

[davidz 26]

Guys, the issue is not that charts (talking about NACO - the FAA charts in the United States) require a license, it's a matter of aggregation.  The charts are provided by the government, free of charge.  The only way companies (such as ForeFlight) are able to charge you for this data is that they're providing you with the chart delivery and management.

 

The other problem is that the United States is probably the only country where government works are excluded from copyright protection. 

 

In most other countries, the AIP is protected by copyright. I know for a fact that when you access the Australia AIP electronically, there is a thousand word copyright warning that you have to accept prior to access. To compile a worldwide database of AIP charts would require licenses from over a hundred national aeronautical information services. This is not to mention that some states seem produce charts with abysmal ergonomics and readability (who wants an A4-sized SID  chart drawn to scale with an incredible amount of information overload?), seemingly assuming that everyone is just going to use Jeppesen.

[Tabs 2,790]

EFB probably will not happen unless we can work a deal with a commercial navdata provider for both chart and ground/airport data. The idea that we're going to ad-hoc a bunch of charts together for it every month from free sources is not workable. There are limitations here guys, PMDG is not a billion dollar company with infinite resources to spend on something like this - this data is *extremely* expensive for the real world airplane and real world full flight simulator facilities.

As someone above said too - there are probably more 777s without the EFB now than there are with them. United, American, Delta, Emirates, Cathay etc - all of them have aircraft without it. This type of device appears to be going the way of things like dedicated auto GPS units - replaced by newer and more portable technology like iPads and other tablet devices. What would you pick if you were in management at an airline - an extremely expensive manufacturer option that's unlikely to get significant software upgrades and features, or a $500 iPad (probably far less than this if they're getting an Apple volume discount, which I'm sure they are) that can be upgraded and added onto practically to infinity?

[BAW 23]

I would never use it, as I will fly it with BA (I know, not realistic to fly an 77L with them)

 

Alex Jones

[A320FAN 370]

EFB probably will not happen unless we can work a deal with a commercial navdata provider for both chart and ground/airport data. The idea that we're going to ad-hoc a bunch of charts together for it every month from free sources is not workable. There are limitations here guys, PMDG is not a billion dollar company with infinite resources to spend on something like this - this data is *extremely* expensive for the real world airplane and real world full flight simulator facilities.

 

As someone above said too - there are probably more 777s without the EFB now than there are with them. United, American, Delta, Emirates, Cathay etc - all of them have aircraft without it. This type of device appears to be going the way of things like dedicated auto GPS units - replaced by newer and more portable technology like iPads and other tablet devices. What would you pick if you were in management at an airline - an extremely expensive manufacturer option that's unlikely to get significant software upgrades and features, or a $500 iPad (probably far less than this if they're getting an Apple volume discount, which I'm sure they are) that can be upgraded and added onto practically to infinity?

I like with EFB. I think it goes well with the 777 and highly effective.

[sidh 29]

If some airlines don't have it then I am ok with it

[aceridgey 330]

EFB probably will not happen unless we can work a deal with a commercial navdata provider for both chart and ground/airport data. The idea that we're going to ad-hoc a bunch of charts together for it every month from free sources is not workable. There are limitations here guys, PMDG is not a billion dollar company with infinite resources to spend on something like this - this data is *extremely* expensive for the real world airplane and real world full flight simulator facilities.

 

As someone above said too - there are probably more 777s without the EFB now than there are with them. United, American, Delta, Emirates, Cathay etc - all of them have aircraft without it. This type of device appears to be going the way of things like dedicated auto GPS units - replaced by newer and more portable technology like iPads and other tablet devices. What would you pick if you were in management at an airline - an extremely expensive manufacturer option that's unlikely to get significant software upgrades and features, or a $500 iPad (probably far less than this if they're getting an Apple volume discount, which I'm sure they are) that can be upgraded and added onto practically to infinity?

 

 

Hi Ryan,

 

Do you suggest using TOPCAT [which is showing it's age a little] for the takeoff performance if not using the EFB in the aircraft? OR will pmdg create their own takeoff performance manager? 

[pride545 30]

The Air Force has just announced that they are buying 50,000 ipads for their chart use.