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747 Red Speedbar Error on Takeoff

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This is driving me nuts. Im getting this red speedbar a couple seconds after VR. TOGA sets, Throttle hold annunciates after 80kts, no engine failures, and just after rotating it happens. Recall is clean, checklists completed (3x over to make sure, ugh)

Ive been trying to troubleshoot this and cant for the life of me figure it out. Ive attached 2 jpgs, one before takeoff, 2nd one is just after rotation. 

If I keep flying under the circumstances, VNAV will disconnect soon after and reset the speed bug to 100. So I continue flying under SPD, and V/S however it still presents speed problems. Its as if its a overspeed red bar or the stall speed bar all the way up. 

 

Ive turned the FMC "inside out" with details, and all seems in order. No problem with flights before. NGX, and MD11 work fine. Ive reinstalled it (Boxed CD version) and insured its the current which is 2.1 May 27/08 as per aircraft.cfg

 

Ive also tried different flightplans, different load configs, TO configs, Flaps 10 and 20, and freighter and pax versions.

 

 

 

 

 

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Dave,

Thinking on this this morning whilst out walking. I cannot imagine what's happening.

V2 set at 151kts. IAS/MACH set at 161kts. Already accelerating fairly hard at 164+kts, and a flaps5 indicated at 185kts.

I would love to see what happens as you climb further to see whether there is an end to the red line.

Interested in what others come up with.

Cheers, Richard

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Ive also tried different flightplans, different load configs, TO configs, Flaps 10 and 20, and freighter and pax versions.

 

Check to ensure your FMC isn't set to look for values in KGs while you're giving it values in LBS.

 

I'm about 95% sure that's your issue.  If you feed it LBS when it's looking for KGs, it's assuming you're super heavy, and the speed tape values are adjusted unrealistically.

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Dave,

Thinking on this this morning whilst out walking. I cannot imagine what's happening.

V2 set at 151kts. IAS/MACH set at 161kts. Already accelerating fairly hard at 164+kts, and a flaps5 indicated at 185kts.

I would love to see what happens as you climb further to see whether there is an end to the red line.

Interested in what others come up with.

Cheers, Richard

Thanks for reply. I set 161 playing around with different speeds just to see if any differences. There is no end to the red line. I successfully completed the flight, all the while self managing the speeds. Red line remains at cruise FL.

 

Check to ensure your FMC isn't set to look for values in KGs while you're giving it values in LBS.

 

I'm about 95% sure that's your issue.  If you feed it LBS when it's looking for KGs, it's assuming you're super heavy, and the speed tape values are adjusted unrealistically.

Thanks for reply. I was hoping that was it, but figured it wasnt because I completed a flight and the fuel was right on as predicted. If it was super heavy in kgs, this would be way off not to mention a very difficult time to climb. For the sake of it, I did check the pmdg options menu and it is indeed in lbs. You mention to look at the FMC for the setting, but I dont see any menu options for such. I assume you mean the pmdg options at the FSX menu bar. 

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If it was super heavy in kgs, this would be way off not to mention a very difficult time to climb.

 

Not really - remember, we're not dealing with the physical state of the aircraft, we're dealing with the theoretical state you've told it to assume.  The plane isn't actually heavy, you just told the FMC that it is.  As such, it would still climb just fine because the actual weight is X, but you've told it to assume X * 2.2 (so, over twice as heavy as it actually is.)

 

 

 


For the sake of it, I did check the pmdg options menu and it is indeed in lbs.

 

Okay.  The what about the opposite.  The system is set to pounds, but you gave it kg.  Granted, it's the opposite case, but messing up weights will throw the automation off, while the aircraft's performance remains just fine.

 

 

 


You mention to look at the FMC for the setting, but I dont see any menu options for such. I assume you mean the pmdg options at the FSX menu bar. 

 

I said "[c]heck to ensure your FMC isn't set to look for values in KGs while you're giving it values in LBS."  That doesn't mean look for the setting in the FMC, rather look for the setting for the FMC, which - as you assumed - is in PMDG options in the menus.

 

Based on your screenshots, I honestly believe this is an incorrect weight entry.  Either by setting one unit and typing another, or just incorrectly entering the weight (regardless of unit.)

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Based on your screenshots, I honestly believe this is an incorrect weight entry.  Either by setting one unit and typing another, or just incorrectly entering the weight (regardless of unit.)

 

Dont know what else to tell you. Im using  the PMDG 747 load manager, and there is a drop down option for lbs and kgs and its set for lbs, upon which I send it to fsx, and confirm it in the FMC. Not to mention the lbs setting in the options menu. 

 

Last test flight was with 589721LBS  ZFW

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Dont know what else to tell you. Im using  the PMDG 747 load manager, and there is a drop down option for lbs and kgs and its set for lbs, upon which I send it to fsx, and confirm it in the FMC. Not to mention the lbs setting in the options menu. 

 

Hey, I'm only going off of the limited evidence you've given us.  I have to work with what I'm given.

 

Are you running both FSX and the load manager as an administrator?

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Hey, I'm only going off of the limited evidence you've given us.  I have to work with what I'm given.

 

Are you running both FSX and the load manager as an administrator?

FSX for sure. Load manager ill have to verify, but I usually set any program associated with FSX with administrator rights. Ill check it later. 

Sorry, I thought I gave sufficient evidence to have some ideas. 

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FSX for sure. Load manager ill have to verify, but I usually set any program associated with FSX with administrator rights. Ill check it later. 

 

Worth a check.  I've had some issues when I didn't run the Manager as an admin.

 

 

 


Sorry, I thought I gave sufficient evidence to have some ideas. 

 

No problem, but with the pictures painting a nice target on the 95% case, it's tough to go down other paths.  I just don't want you getting frustrated with me thinking I'm almost being intentionally unhelpful or the like.  The symptoms fit, so I'm trying to eliminate that completely before moving on.

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Hi Dave,

 

The performance sure implies very heavy. I see where you have tried many load configurations.

 

How about to prove she can fly "normally" you use the load manager to set minimum fuel and load. Ensure, as you may have already, that the load manager is in LBS, as is the PMDG options, so no risk of logic crossing for fuel quantity and load. 

You could then try 3 options:

1. Think of her as a very big Cessna and do not use the FMC at all. Hand fly her from CYVR to KBFI

2. Assuming 1.) above gives you no speed tape issues, then use say 1/4 load of fuel and cargo, this time use the FMC and program a short flight to say KGEG.

 

3. Assuming 2.) above gives you no issues, then keep raising the fuel/load weights until you get to max fuel/load. Sooner or later you may find what your issues have been.

 

The best training I ever received in my corporate life was in Kepner-Tregoe methods, which is a problem solving methodology...what-where-when-extent..... is/is not.

 

The 747v1 is a fantastic reliable a/c with many zillions of hours flown on many platforms. If all else fails, then Ryan at PMDG will very soon solve your issue. (though now hopefully a little busy with the 777)

 

Regards

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Worth a check.  I've had some issues when I didn't run the Manager as an admin.

 

 

 

 

No problem, but with the pictures painting a nice target on the 95% case, it's tough to go down other paths.  I just don't want you getting frustrated with me thinking I'm almost being intentionally unhelpful or the like.  The symptoms fit, so I'm trying to eliminate that completely before moving on.

Ok load manager was NOT run as administrator. Now it is but same result. 

Not frustrated with you, it was a logical thought. I was thinking about it before too doing all the load changes. Appreciate the help.

 

Hi Dave,

 

The performance sure implies very heavy. I see where you have tried many load configurations.

 

How about to prove she can fly "normally" you use the load manager to set minimum fuel and load. Ensure, as you may have already, that the load manager is in LBS, as is the PMDG options, so no risk of logic crossing for fuel quantity and load. 

You could then try 3 options:

1. Think of her as a very big Cessna and do not use the FMC at all. Hand fly her from CYVR to KBFI

2. Assuming 1.) above gives you no speed tape issues, then use say 1/4 load of fuel and cargo, this time use the FMC and program a short flight to say KGEG.

 

3. Assuming 2.) above gives you no issues, then keep raising the fuel/load weights until you get to max fuel/load. Sooner or later you may find what your issues have been.

 

The best training I ever received in my corporate life was in Kepner-Tregoe methods, which is a problem solving methodology...what-where-when-extent..... is/is not.

 

The 747v1 is a fantastic reliable a/c with many zillions of hours flown on many platforms. If all else fails, then Ryan at PMDG will very soon solve your issue. (though now hopefully a little busy with the 777)

 

Regards

Thanks for your suggestions and input as well. Indeed didnt want to bug pmdg as they are busy enough with 777 and hopefully progress with 747v2. (maybe we will get some screenshots soon :)  )

 

As for your troubleshooting, makes sense. I applied this when i was a cable tv technician. Anyhow Assuming 1)  did fail just after rotation again, got the red bar on the speedtape. Had no payload and only 40,000lbs of fuel.  Load manager (as administrator) send the load and all in lbs as  is in the menu options. 

Im at a loss. But thanks for the ideas guys. 

 

Back to my go to long haul aircraft, my trusty MD11 workhorse. 

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Ok load manager was NOT run as administrator. Now it is but same result. 

 

Can you describe exactly - step by step - what you're doing?  I'll try and recreate it on my machine.

Crazy detail here: what livery, what load weight you're loading (use a preset, not random - otherwise I'll never get the same thing), what fuel you're loading, what unit in the load manager, a screenshot of your PMDG Options where the unit is set, and your FMC INIT page.

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Back to my go to long haul aircraft, my trusty MD11 workhorse.

 

 

Hi Dave,

 

Strange behavior you are getting. Hope you can resolve it.

 

However, soon, the 777 and dah dahhhhh the 747v2, which should be fantastic.

 

As for your MD11 workhorse (as a FedEx virtual pilot, you need this bird)...I have just loaded it and my journey with it begins while waiting for the 2 new birds. Must say first impressions are I much prefer the Boeing FMS and flight sytems.

Regards

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Hi Dave,

 

Strange behavior you are getting. Hope you can resolve it.

 

However, soon, the 777 and dah dahhhhh the 747v2, which should be fantastic.

 

As for your MD11 workhorse (as a FedEx virtual pilot, you need this bird)...I have just loaded it and my journey with it begins while waiting for the 2 new birds. Must say first impressions are I much prefer the Boeing FMS and flight sytems.

Regards

The MD11 is a true joy to work with and fly. The FMS once you get to know it is functions very well. Its like a hybrid Boeing and Airbus functionality. The AoA course helped tremendously in getting to know this bird well. Will still be in use even when 777 comes out. Will be my freighter flights with FDX,.

Can you describe exactly - step by step - what you're doing?  I'll try and recreate it on my machine.

Crazy detail here: what livery, what load weight you're loading (use a preset, not random - otherwise I'll never get the same thing), what fuel you're loading, what unit in the load manager, a screenshot of your PMDG Options where the unit is set, and your FMC INIT page.

Ok Kyle, Got some screenshots for you. Its PMDG livery with GE and started at KPAE. Made a very simple flightplan to CYVR. Just a STAR. 1/3 Cargo load per manager. Doesnt matter as my problem happens on rotation. 

Im certainly no expert but I know enough to get around the cockpit well and love deep systems involvement. But nothing jumps out that is obvious in causing this. Oh and yes trim was set as per takeoff page. 

 

 

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Try running it without any weather (clear weather) and see if it does the same thing.

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Try running it without any weather (clear weather) and see if it does the same thing.

Good idea, but sadly it didnt work. 

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Good idea, but sadly it didnt work.

Hi Dave,

I wondered if you were confusing the THRUST LIMIT logic with a SEL temp of 44c (which is very high) and a OAT of 23c. It looks like you have a de-rated Thrust limit of -15% ?

 

Got to be some simple solution, as I am sure you have done this flight setup many times.

 

Regards 

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Hi Dave,

I wondered if you were confusing the THRUST LIMIT logic with a SEL temp of 44c (which is very high) and a OAT of 23c. It looks like you have a de-rated Thrust limit of -15% ?

 

Got to be some simple solution, as I am sure you have done this flight setup many times.

 

Regards

There's nothing wrong in combining a fixed derate with an assumed temp. Also +44C is not particularly high. Topcat will often suggest much higher assumed temps.

 

I don't normally recommend reinstalling an add-on to fix issues like this but without anything else obviously wrong, it might be worth a try.

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I don't normally recommend reinstalling an add-on to fix issues like this but without anything else obviously wrong, it might be worth a try.

 

Hi Kevin,

 

Yes, I wondered about the logic of temp switching. Some thing is obviously screwed up somewhere.

 

Dave said in his first post that he had already re-installed it from his boxed version. Several months ago, I "lost" my VC in the 747 for some reason. Just one day it had gone. Ryan said to re-install as some times this was the only method of restoring the 747 program...and all was well again. However, as Dave has done this, and all the right moves...a perplexing issue with hopefully a 'simple' solution.

 

Regards 

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Does the red bar appear on the speed tape if you dont program the FMC and just load it up and firewall the throttles? (Sorry if this has been answered, I only skimmed the thread)

 

 

Best way to rule out an FMC problem.

 

 

Regards,

Ivo

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I derated engines because of a very light load. Derate temps go to 60C. Anyhow it was something different. Whether I derate as TO-1 ,2 and or use a temp, or use full on power, gives the same resulted issue.

 

I'm thinking maybe its just another bummed up install. I know u have to remove all pmdg folders relating to 747 after the uninstall.

 

Trying without fmc programmed later today as suggested.....

 

 

Quote

Does the red bar appear on the speed tape if you dont program the FMC and just load it up and firewall the throttles? (Sorry if this has been answered, I only skimmed the thread)

 

 

Best way to rule out an FMC problem.

 

 

Regards,

Ivo

 

Good suggestion. I think I tried before but couldnt remember, but thought I would try again. Anyway it did the exact same thing, so that rules out FMC programming errors.

 

 

Folks thanks very much for all your inputs and suggestions. I just thought maybe there was something i was missing. I will try one more clean install of it, and if it doesnt work give up and wait for the 747v2 which is probably a good 8mos after 777 is released I would think.

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Low and behold! Reinstalled, and this time its back to normal. Did a test flight, and all seems like it should. Held my breath on the first takeoff roll at V2.

Not sure why it took 2 reinstalls, but the headaches of troubleshooting that are done. 

 

Thanks

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Low and behold! Reinstalled, and this time its back to normal.

 

Glad you got it sorted.

...and if I didn't post this earlier, thanks for taking the time to post the pics!

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Glad you got it sorted.

...and if I didn't post this earlier, thanks for taking the time to post the pics!

No worries. Thanks for the insight and suggestions. I just thought I was becoming a dense pilot or something missing something obvious. 

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Folks thanks very much for all your inputs and suggestions. I just thought maybe there was something i was missing. I will try one more clean install of it, and if it doesn't work give up and wait for the 747v2 which is probably a good 8mos after 777 is released I would think.

 

Hi Dave,

Never give up mate...its some thing that can be remedied. I am sure you do not have a special computer setup that has suddenly changed to cause this. Anyhow, when I had an issue with the 747, Ryan said to remove and re-install in the following way:

 

"1. Uninstall any liveries for the 747 from Control Panel/Programs & Features.

2. Uninstall the 747 itself from the same location.

3. Manually delete the FSX\PMDG\747400 folder if it's still there.

4. Manually delete the FSX\SimObjects\Airplanes\PMDG747-400 and PMDG747-400F folders if they're still there.

5. Reinstall the airplane clean from the CD.

Let me know if there's still an issue after that."

 

If this does not help, send Ryan a ticket, tell him what you have tried and done.

 

http://support.precisionmanuals.com/Main/Default.aspx 

 

Regards

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