Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
VeryBumpy

VOR to VOR navigation question

Recommended Posts

And/or, you can use a pair of regular VOR gauges (like in the default C172).... or even just one VOR gauge with a 'flip/flop' receiver.. or (a bit tedious), you can manually change frequencies using just one receiver/gauge..

 

As for aiming at (3,4).. you'll fly a good part of that leg tracking away from an NDB (its range is the circle).. getting a good feel for winds aloft, so you'll likely get within range of the terminal VOR, right on course. But you can check your position any time by checking bearing/range from either VOR.. or triangulating via both VORs..

 

:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for aiming at (3,4)..  But you can check your position any time by checking bearing/range from either VOR.. or triangulating via both VORs..

 

:)

 

Oh good lord, now I know why they had navigator seats behind the pilot.

 

Gets even more fun if  the VOR does not have DME:

 Estimating the Distance and Time to a VOR without DME
Procedure

1.                  Fly inbound with a centered bearing.
2.                  Turn about 80° left or right.
3.                  Reset OBI to a bearing ahead
4.                  As the needle centers, start timing
5.                  Reset the OBI an additional 10° ahead
6.                  When the needle re-centers, stop timing
7.                  Your time to the VOR is roughly 6 times the recorded interval [really 5.73 times]
8.                  Convert you airspeed to the same units as the interval, if needed
9.                  Your distance to the VOR is the recorded interval multiplied by your speed
10.              Turn back toward the VOR, set the OBI to center the needle and fly in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah.. there all kinda tricks and geometry :)

 

Let me be a little more clear.. you can fly a very precise course to/from an NDB.. so you aren't blindly groping for that intersection... And even if you choose only one (3,4) intersection; you'll see your drift (if any), if the CDIs are not centering at the expected time(s).. IOW, if one nears center too soon, you know which way you drifted..

 

And of course, as mentioned.. you can 'plan' for as many (3,4) intersections as you feel you need..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep. To be honest flying a 727 single pilot with nothing but a couple of VOR and NDB receivers is about as tricky as it gets. The workload is ridiculously high as you're doing the work of 3 people! Remember in real life someone else would be twiddling all those buttons for you. I find it much easier with an LNAV button :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most of the work happens on the ground.. if you're well versed in flight-planning, and have mastered radio navigation (in slow, forgiving trainers)... it's not hard at all. You already know what's going to happen.. so the in-flight navigation itself, is almost redundant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Next question, where can I find some typical commercial airliner VOR to VOR navigation routes or charts for back in the day when GPS, SID and STAR weren't around?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a good question.. I'll poke around.

 

Mean-time, I'm sure they'd be very close to what you'd come up with, if you plotted them yourself... www.skyvector.com ...has all the online charts you'd need. Or, even the FSX built-in planner works well, and you can avoid the name/frequency changes that might have happened since 2006.

 

I just set it up for 'VOR-to-VOR' plan, and then go in and tweak it a bit (i.e.. sometimes it'll use low-altitude, or terminal VORs for legs beyond their ranges)... then you can even print out a log, showing frequencies/radials/ranges ..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Skyvector.com - all the Jet routes are on there and can all be flown without GPS.

 

Also STARS have been around for a while. You don't need GPS-FMS for them unless they say RNAV.

 

Seems to be a common misconception that you need a FMS to fly a STAR or DP. The chart will say RNAV then you'd need FMS or some other form of RNAV like INS etc.


| FAA ZMP |
| PPL ASEL |
| Windows 11 | MSI Z690 Tomahawk | 12700K 4.7GHz | MSI RTX 4080 | 32GB 5600 MHz DDR5 | 500GB Samsung 860 Evo SSD | 2x 2TB Samsung 970 Evo M.2 | EVGA 850W Gold | Corsair 5000X | HP G2 (VR) / LG 27" 1440p |

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Normally, how many people were in the cockpits of steam gauge only airliners? To keep up with all the VOR changes and plans, AND watch the engine panels, I assume there were always at least 3. This is the case for most anything flown before ~1970?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 


... or charts for back in the day when GPS, SID and STAR weren't around?

 

Note that as Ryan mentions, SIDs and STARs have been around for a long time to help maximize efficiency in terminal areas, they were all originally based on ground based navaid fixes and many still are.  Leaving aside the airliner part of the question, how many pilots did/does it take to fly this horribly primitive way, tuning radios and identifying fixes from actual intersections based on needles, all while flying and managing and monitoring engine(s)?  One. :-) 

 

Scott

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It can be overwhelming especially in FSX where we don't have the advantage of tactile feedback.

 

The key to busy airspace is to plan ahead. Put your freqs in standby or another radio. Stay ahead of the power curve.


| FAA ZMP |
| PPL ASEL |
| Windows 11 | MSI Z690 Tomahawk | 12700K 4.7GHz | MSI RTX 4080 | 32GB 5600 MHz DDR5 | 500GB Samsung 860 Evo SSD | 2x 2TB Samsung 970 Evo M.2 | EVGA 850W Gold | Corsair 5000X | HP G2 (VR) / LG 27" 1440p |

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Normally, how many people were in the cockpits of steam gauge only airliners? To keep up with all the VOR changes and plans, AND watch the engine panels, I assume there were always at least 3. This is the case for most anything flown before ~1970?

 

That third member was usually a flight engineer.  I had an uncle who was a flight engineer on various Air Force aircraft (mostly transports) from WWII until he was forced to cross-train to become a loadmaster with the advent of the C5A.  You might find the following link interesting in light of where this conversation has gone.  That uncle was who inspired me to take up flying.  Later after his retirement in the mid-80's it was my turn to inspire him to take up flight simulation.  He did so and was a dedicated flight sim enthusiast until slightly before his passing some 20 years later.  I also recall in the early 60's sitting toward the front of the cabin on my very first commercial flight and watching the flight engineer work.  No cockpit door back then.  That flight was on a TWA Super Connie from Kansas City to Miami for a family vacation.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_engineer


Frank Patton
MasterCase Pro H500M; MSI Z490 WiFi MOB; i7 10700k 3.8 Ghz; Gigabyte RTX 3080 12gb OC; H100i Pro liquid cooler; 32GB DDR4 3600;  Gold RMX850X PSU;
ASUS 
VG289 4K 27" Monitor; Honeycomb Alpha & Bravo, Crosswind 3's w/dampener.  
Former USAF meteorologist & ground weather school instructor. AOPA Member #07379126
                       
"I will never put my name on a product that does not have in it the best that is in me." - John Deere

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Planning is the key..

----------

 

'High Altitude' VORs have ranges between 150-200nm.

 

'Low Altitude' VORs ~50nm

 

'Terminal' VORs ~25nm

---------------

 

Also, keep in mind that VOR navigation need not be a direct course twixt two VORs.. I.E.. outbound on a radial until intersecting the next VOR radial (maybe terminal or low-altitude VOR)..

------------

IOW... High-Altitude VORs can give you 300-400nm legs.. and if for some reason you need to plan for longer legs (airspace or mountain avoidance.. or a more direct course) .. you just need to take advantage of all your tools..

-------------

Attached is an example: green course, traveling from right-to-left, avoiding airspace, arriving at an airport with a terminal VOR (very short range)..

----------------

-Fly dired to VOR(2), until intersecting a radial from VOR(1)

-----------

-turn on-course using a couple of DME/radial references from VOR(2)

---------------

-when in range of NDB(pink) fly roughly to/from it (keeps you clear of airspace).. then maintain a relatively accurate course by radial intertsestions (VOR(3)(4)) .. one should do it, but plan for more per winds aloft..

-----------------

Once in range of terminal VOR.. you're home-free :)

 

Edit: Having trouble with image upload.. working on it.. (got it, using my laptop)attachicon.gifoddnav1.jpg

How do you identify when a VOR is High, low range?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's actually, high/low altitude.. but yes, it's about range..

 

That's the on ground, planning part.. You identify a VORs limitations, before you incorporate them into your flight-plan.

 

That info can be found by several real-world sources..

 

In MSFS, it's included on the map pages, or flight-planning pages...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's actually, high/low altitude.. but yes, it's about range.. That's the on ground, planning part.. You identify a VORs limitations, before you incorporate them into your flight-plan. That info can be found by several real-world sources.. In MSFS, it's included on the map pages, or flight-planning pages...

thanks!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Tom Allensworth,
    Founder of AVSIM Online


  • Flight Simulation's Premier Resource!

    AVSIM is a free service to the flight simulation community. AVSIM is staffed completely by volunteers and all funds donated to AVSIM go directly back to supporting the community. Your donation here helps to pay our bandwidth costs, emergency funding, and other general costs that crop up from time to time. Thank you for your support!

    Click here for more information and to see all donations year to date.
×
×
  • Create New...