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moekarout

''777'' Captain and F/O VIEW

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Dear guys 

1-MY question may sound little weird but its the place to ask questions

Since I started flying on FS I always get confused in the best view to be set in the cockpit, whether its captain or f/o seat 

 

what am trying to say, what is the exact best angle to put your view in the VC to actually simulate the view of the captain, the right place for your head and how much do u pan the camera to be able to see the PFD and ND, i understand that during cruise or when the a/p is on it doesnt matter because the pilot usually is looking all over and monitoring all the gauges 

 

but i want exactly at the time he is actually flying and he has full control of it, what gauges and things are visible at that angle, i want to do it as real as it gets, so few pics of you guys would clarify this to me :) thank you 

 

 

2- out of topic, am curious to know if the 777-300ER we are anticipating after the base package has its model created or not yet? 


Moe ELkarout

 

Boeing777_Banner_Pilot.jpg

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so few pics of you guys would clarify this to me :) thank you 

 

Simism failure number 42:

Pictures never simulate what you see with your eye.  Ever.  Despite having similar principles - lenses, an adjustable aperture (your iris) and photo receptors - a picture is not going to show you exactly what you'd see.  Pictures cannot accurately depict periphery.

 

Your best, accurate view of what is seen is in the default head location (where PMDG puts it), with a zoom of 1.0.  This is generally impractical, because the monitor forces you to lose periphery, so people generally run at lower zoom levels (0.6-0.8) to compromise and allow the fisheye distortion to give you a little periphery.

 

Why would they provide you with an inaccurate head position that you'd have to adjust?

They wouldn't.

 

 

 


2- out of topic, am curious to know if the 777-300ER we are anticipating after the base package has its model created or not yet? 

 

Doubtful.

They're probably working pretty hard at just making sure the LR/LRF is done before moving on.  Then again, the visual model team may well be working on the visual model, though the internals are probably not all together.


Kyle Rodgers

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I agree with Kyle, 1.0 zoom (or 100%) would be accurate.

 

Let me describe what I do with the PMDG 737 NGX:

I use two monitors.

The second monitor is used only for 2D pop up windows and therefor have virtually no impact on frame rate or smoothness of the flight!

 

I find it impossible to fly accurate visual approaches (downwind - base - final) on one monitor.

(accurate for me = a nice and stabilised 3 degree descent to the runway)

 

Maybe others know how to do it on one monitor and can help you with that.

I can not.

 

I start the flight (it starts in virtual cockpit) and expand to full screen mode.

Lets use the default (PMDG pre programmed) T.O. off from Amsterdam.

You will find that you are very upclose to the windscreen.

This is a very accurate view of what you as a pilot would see.

The problem is, you see nothing of the MCP flight instruments, etc etc...

A real world pilot can see everything at the same time.

You can see out the window and from the corner of your eyes you can still see the whole cockpit at the same time.

In FSX you can not.

 

It is actually strange that even if you would buy a display the size of a real cockpit....at zoom 1.0 you would still only see a huge huge window and nothing else.

You could zoom out to 0.8 or so and then you would get a pretty cool, realistic size VC, but that view out the window would NOT be accurate at that zoom level!

 

Anyway,

For T.O I dont care too much aboute "accurate zoom" as I am not going to a specific point (just up up and awaaay as Ariel from Flying Wild Alaska would say :-) )

So I zoom to about 0.7 or 0.8 or whatever gives me a nice overview of the cockpit (a bit wider than default as per personal preference).

Then I click on the PFD, ND and Upper Center display (engine display) so they pop up and can be moved around.

I drag these to my second monitor (it sits below the primary display) and adapt their size to my liking.

 

Ok so I now have VC full screen on top.

And PFD, ND, Eng on the bottom.

 

I pretty much leave it like this for the whole flight.

 

During the visual approach this zoom level also allows me to look out the side window and time my base turn. (remember I have all the displays that I require to keep control of the aircraft on my bottom monitor so I can just lock the top view to the right or left.

 

The problem with this zoomed out condition (0.7 to 0.8) is that I find you can not judge height versus distance on a visual approach.

I can not tell once on final wether I am too high ot too low for my desired 3 degrees VISUAL flight path with this zoom factor.

So on final I press + or - untill zoom is 1.0 (100%)

All I see now on the top display is one window. (the left (capt) or right (FO) windscreen that is)

Nothing else, no instruments...nothing.

Now my outside view is accurate!

Now I can judge if I am too high or too low.

 

it is important to have an accurate view for landing because you ARE going to a specicific point now. The THRESHOLD!

And you want to go there preferably on a 3 degrees glide path (if terrain allows).

Having to dive down to the threshold or fly level the last 2nm in 400ft all because you could not accurately judge where in space you are, is not the right way to do it.

 

And now you see why I need a second monitor too.

I need to see my instruments (speed/attitude/vertical speed and engine parameters) and the top view does not show them anymore!

It only shows the left or right Fwd Windscreen.

 

So I have an "unaccurate" zoom level pretty much everywhere except on final.

 

 

Hope this helps?

 

 

Ps I am not saying my way is THE way!

It is just the way I like it :-)


Rob Robson

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Doubtful.

They're probably working pretty hard at just making sure the LR/LRF is done before moving on. Then again, the visual model team may well be working on the visual model, though the internals are probably not all together.

Robert did mention on one of his updates that the external modelling of the 77W was already complete.

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Simism failure number 42:

Pictures never simulate what you see with your eye.  Ever.  Despite having similar principles - lenses, an adjustable aperture (your iris) and photo receptors - a picture is not going to show you exactly what you'd see.  Pictures cannot accurately depict periphery.

 

Your best, accurate view of what is seen is in the default head location (where PMDG puts it), with a zoom of 1.0.  This is generally impractical, because the monitor forces you to lose periphery, so people generally run at lower zoom levels (0.6-0.8) to compromise and allow the fisheye distortion to give you a little periphery.

 

Why would they provide you with an inaccurate head position that you'd have to adjust?

They wouldn't.

 

 

 

 

Doubtful.

They're probably working pretty hard at just making sure the LR/LRF is done before moving on.  Then again, the visual model team may well be working on the visual model, though the internals are probably not all together.

Uh you usually give clear answers, thanks for that clarification 

I understand that it usually varies even with the size of the screen sometimes, and the various aspects but as u said, pmdg wouldn't neglect such an issue and they will try hard to give you the best angle and zoom,,, thanks again :) 

 

regarding the 777, then do you think it will take them much of time and effort? as RSR mentioned, systems are typically the same with some slight differences due to weight and size. like a year maybe after the -200?


Moe ELkarout

 

Boeing777_Banner_Pilot.jpg

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I agree with Kyle, 1.0 zoom (or 100%) would be accurate.

 

Let me describe what I do with the PMDG 737 NGX:

I use two monitors.

The second monitor is used only for 2D pop up windows and therefor have virtually no impact on frame rate or smoothness of the flight!

 

I find it impossible to fly accurate visual approaches (downwind - base - final) on one monitor.

(accurate for me = a nice and stabilised 3 degree descent to the runway)

 

Maybe others know how to do it on one monitor and can help you with that.

I can not.

 

I start the flight (it starts in virtual cockpit) and expand to full screen mode.

Lets use the default (PMDG pre programmed) T.O. off from Amsterdam.

You will find that you are very upclose to the windscreen.

This is a very accurate view of what you as a pilot would see.

The problem is, you see nothing of the MCP flight instruments, etc etc...

A real world pilot can see everything at the same time.

You can see out the window and from the corner of your eyes you can still see the whole cockpit at the same time.

In FSX you can not.

 

It is actually strange that even if you would buy a display the size of a real cockpit....at zoom 1.0 you would still only see a huge huge window and nothing else.

You could zoom out to 0.8 or so and then you would get a pretty cool, realistic size VC, but that view out the window would NOT be accurate at that zoom level!

 

Anyway,

For T.O I dont care too much aboute "accurate zoom" as I am not going to a specific point (just up up and awaaay as Ariel from Flying Wild Alaska would say :-) )

So I zoom to about 0.7 or 0.8 or whatever gives me a nice overview of the cockpit (a bit wider than default as per personal preference).

Then I click on the PFD, ND and Upper Center display (engine display) so they pop up and can be moved around.

I drag these to my second monitor (it sits below the primary display) and adapt their size to my liking.

 

Ok so I now have VC full screen on top.

And PFD, ND, Eng on the bottom.

 

I pretty much leave it like this for the whole flight.

 

During the visual approach this zoom level also allows me to look out the side window and time my base turn. (remember I have all the displays that I require to keep control of the aircraft on my bottom monitor so I can just lock the top view to the right or left.

 

The problem with this zoomed out condition (0.7 to 0.8) is that I find you can not judge height versus distance on a visual approach.

I can not tell once on final wether I am too high ot too low for my desired 3 degrees VISUAL flight path with this zoom factor.

So on final I press + or - untill zoom is 1.0 (100%)

All I see now on the top display is one window. (the left (capt) or right (FO) windscreen that is)

Nothing else, no instruments...nothing.

Now my outside view is accurate!

Now I can judge if I am too high or too low.

 

it is important to have an accurate view for landing because you ARE going to a specicific point now. The THRESHOLD!

And you want to go there preferably on a 3 degrees glide path (if terrain allows).

Having to dive down to the threshold or fly level the last 2nm in 400ft all because you could not accurately judge where in space you are, is not the right way to do it.

 

And now you see why I need a second monitor too.

I need to see my instruments (speed/attitude/vertical speed and engine parameters) and the top view does not show them anymore!

It only shows the left or right Fwd Windscreen.

 

So I have an "unaccurate" zoom level pretty much everywhere except on final.

 

 

Hope this helps?

 

 

Ps I am not saying my way is THE way!

It is just the way I like it :-)

 

 

 

uh boy! that was great man 

 

I totally agree with many of the problems you have mentioned 

well its a simulator at the end, you cant simulate the seat of the pilot at all, as a real world pilot, sometimes you need to make a steep turns to align with your runway, and with one monitor you cant keep the track on that runway unless you zoom out, VHHX is an example, when i am flying with 1.0 zoom, i should keep on paning to the right and thus losing monitor of my PFD and bank angle thus it causes me confusion, so it sometimes ruins your landing, the pilots eyes are free in real world and they can always look everywhere and mostly everything is visible, 

 

I dont really care about take off as you said, its all about take off and look at the sky, specially at night, so the moment i left off i go to my displays and overhead to manage lights etc... 

but landing is important, the height is very important, i mean your view, if its too high, the PAPI will show dif than if you are low, and thus it might cause a steep approach, specially with short threshold

like 04L in LFMN, its directly set to the seawall. 

 

anyhow i will try your angles tricks and see if that helps :) thanks again


Moe ELkarout

 

Boeing777_Banner_Pilot.jpg

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This might help.


Jim Driscoll, MSI Raider GE76 12UHS-607 17.3" Gaming Laptop Computer - Blue Intel Core i9 12th Gen 12900HK 1.8GHz Processor; NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 Ti 16GB GDDR6; 64GB DDR5-4800 RAM; Dual M2 2TB Solid State Drives.Driving a Sony KD-50X75, and KDL-48R470B @ 4k 3724x2094,MSFS 2020, 30 FPS on Ultra Settings.

Jorg/Asobo: “Weather is a core part of our simulator, and we will strive to make it as accurate as possible.”Also Jorg/Asobo: “We are going to limit the weather API to rain intensity only.”


 

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You are welcome Moe.

 

@Jim.

 

That picture shows the real world pilot optimum seating position.

And we simmers can not move our seat back or up to get that view!

Our monitor displays the same thing no matter where I move my seat :-)

 

So no it does not help, but it does help show the problem :-)

 

To see that what a real world pilot would see (as depicted in that drawing), you have to zoom out to about 0.7 -0.8

And at that point, when you look out the window, 1 mile does not look like 1 mile anymore.

It will look like more than a mile.

And you will end up flying your VISUAL approach too steep/too high.

Of course if the runway has a glideslope or VASI that you can follow, than this does not matter. But for pure Visual approaches it ruins everything for me.


Rob Robson

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I agree with Kyle, 1.0 zoom (or 100%) would be accurate.

 

Let me describe what I do with the PMDG 737 NGX:

I use two monitors.

The second monitor is used only for 2D pop up windows and therefor have virtually no impact on frame rate or smoothness of the flight!

 

I find it impossible to fly accurate visual approaches (downwind - base - final) on one monitor.

(accurate for me = a nice and stabilised 3 degree descent to the runway)

 

Maybe others know how to do it on one monitor and can help you with that.

I can not.

 

I start the flight (it starts in virtual cockpit) and expand to full screen mode.

Lets use the default (PMDG pre programmed) T.O. off from Amsterdam.

You will find that you are very upclose to the windscreen.

This is a very accurate view of what you as a pilot would see.

The problem is, you see nothing of the MCP flight instruments, etc etc...

A real world pilot can see everything at the same time.

You can see out the window and from the corner of your eyes you can still see the whole cockpit at the same time.

In FSX you can not.

 

It is actually strange that even if you would buy a display the size of a real cockpit....at zoom 1.0 you would still only see a huge huge window and nothing else.

You could zoom out to 0.8 or so and then you would get a pretty cool, realistic size VC, but that view out the window would NOT be accurate at that zoom level!

 

Anyway,

For T.O I dont care too much aboute "accurate zoom" as I am not going to a specific point (just up up and awaaay as Ariel from Flying Wild Alaska would say :-) )

So I zoom to about 0.7 or 0.8 or whatever gives me a nice overview of the cockpit (a bit wider than default as per personal preference).

Then I click on the PFD, ND and Upper Center display (engine display) so they pop up and can be moved around.

I drag these to my second monitor (it sits below the primary display) and adapt their size to my liking.

 

Ok so I now have VC full screen on top.

And PFD, ND, Eng on the bottom.

 

I pretty much leave it like this for the whole flight.

 

During the visual approach this zoom level also allows me to look out the side window and time my base turn. (remember I have all the displays that I require to keep control of the aircraft on my bottom monitor so I can just lock the top view to the right or left.

 

The problem with this zoomed out condition (0.7 to 0.8) is that I find you can not judge height versus distance on a visual approach.

I can not tell once on final wether I am too high ot too low for my desired 3 degrees VISUAL flight path with this zoom factor.

So on final I press + or - untill zoom is 1.0 (100%)

All I see now on the top display is one window. (the left (capt) or right (FO) windscreen that is)

Nothing else, no instruments...nothing.

Now my outside view is accurate!

Now I can judge if I am too high or too low.

 

it is important to have an accurate view for landing because you ARE going to a specicific point now. The THRESHOLD!

And you want to go there preferably on a 3 degrees glide path (if terrain allows).

Having to dive down to the threshold or fly level the last 2nm in 400ft all because you could not accurately judge where in space you are, is not the right way to do it.

 

And now you see why I need a second monitor too.

I need to see my instruments (speed/attitude/vertical speed and engine parameters) and the top view does not show them anymore!

It only shows the left or right Fwd Windscreen.

 

So I have an "unaccurate" zoom level pretty much everywhere except on final.

 

 

Hope this helps?

 

 

Ps I am not saying my way is THE way!

It is just the way I like it :-)

777simmer - what are your computer specs? Do you use a single video card with dual outputs? What card do you have? I've been looking into doing the same thing that you are describing with my 560Ti and wonder what I can expect for performance. I'm actually thinking of getting like a 42" LED TV for the outside view and then using my 24" for the instruments.

 

P.S. Sorry for being off topic.


Regards,

 

Kevin LaMal

"Facts Don't Care About Your Feelings" - Shapiro2024

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That photo Jim posted is not accurate for the 777. There is a different graphic in the 777 manuals that describes it. In the 777 it works by making it so that the bottom edge of the MCP/glareshield sits parallel to the top of the display frames and the top of the yoke column just covers up the "+" that is drawn on top of the rudder adjustment pedals.

 
We spent an inordinate amount of time getting the measurements right in this cockpit and comparing it to eyepoint photos taken by the tech team members. You actually can align the view exactly as stated in the manual in our 777. It does require constant adjustment to keep it that way however thanks to FSX's idiotic head-motion stuff that you can't disable.

 

1.0 zoom is most correct for widescreen monitors assuming that the monitor takes up 30 vertical degrees of your vision. This changes though depending on the distance between you and your monitor - I use .90 myself.


Ryan Maziarz
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For fastest support, please submit a ticket at http://support.precisionmanuals.com

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I actually have a 46" TV as my primary display and a 24" Monitor for the instruments.

 

Its realy quite nice :-)

 

 

I have a 3770k combined with a GTX680.

 

Allthough my system is atronger than yours, you can expect your performance to stay the same as it is now, as long as you only open 2D pop views on that second monitor.

Not all aircraft have pop up instruments (most dont) and at that point I have to use two complete VC on both the TV and the Monitor (monitor zoomed in to the flight instruments)

At that point my frame rate is cut in half :-(

 

I read somewhere that you have to be carefull with TVs when it comes to 1/2Vsync and tearing.

Some of them run on 200Hz or higher and supposedly this can ruin the 1/2Vsync method.

 

I guess I was lucky with my Sony cause it works wonders and with 1/2Vsync I have no tearing at all.

 

But you might want to make sure you can return the TV if things dont work for you!


Rob Robson

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I actually have a 46" TV as my primary display and a 24" Monitor for the instruments.

 

Its realy quite nice :-)

 

 

I have a 3770k combined with a GTX680.

 

Allthough my system is atronger than yours, you can expect your performance to stay the same as it is now, as long as you only open 2D pop views on that second monitor.

Not all aircraft have pop up instruments (most dont) and at that point I have to use two complete VC on both the TV and the Monitor (monitor zoomed in to the flight instruments)

At that point my frame rate is cut in half :-(

 

I read somewhere that you have to be carefull with TVs when it comes to 1/2Vsync and tearing.

Some of them run on 200Hz or higher and supposedly this can ruin the 1/2Vsync method.

 

I guess I was lucky with my Sony cause it works wonders and with 1/2Vsync I have no tearing at all.

 

But you might want to make sure you can return the TV if things dont work for you!

I'm thinking of slowly building a home cockpit. So, I am going to start building a MIP myself in the next couple weeks. I am thinking I will then use the 24" for the PFD/ND(and possibly squeeze the upper EICAS on there too at first til I can afford another PC or something for that. Then I will get an MCP/EFIS so I wouldn't need to look at the virtual MIP much(maybe just for the auto brake or something like that). I'm not sure how feasible this will be yet, but that's why your post sparked my response. It at least sounds like it might be. We'll see.

 

What model Sony did you get? Specs? If you don't mind me asking.


Regards,

 

Kevin LaMal

"Facts Don't Care About Your Feelings" - Shapiro2024

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Hi Ryan, and also at Moe again (I have to say my estimated numbers for zoom in my earlier post were quite off so read this as well please)

 

I just loaded up the PMDG 737 NGX pre programmed EHAM - LOWI flight.

It starts up at 0.7zoom

And you are quite close to windscreen.

It looks realistic but you can not see the PFD or ND.

All you see is the Capt windscreen and some of the MCP.

 

To see what is shown in the drawing I actually have to zoom all the way back to 0.3!

 

Do you agree that at this zoom level the outside world is distorted and judging height versus distance on a visual approach can become difficult?

 

Or am I doing/thinking something wrong here?

 

Or are you saying the 777 is different in this regard and with it you DO see both outside and inside (PFD/ND) at 1.0 zoom?


Rob Robson

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No problem Kevin.

 

What is a MIP?

 

 

I have Sony Bravia 46HX725.

I could not find it in the manual, but according Google it works at 200Hz.

I use a HDMI cable to connect it to the GPU.

 

In Windows it is running on 60Hz which is why 1/2Vsync with FSX locked at 30 fps works just fine I guess.

I really dont know what the problem could be with other TVs but I just thought I should mention it to you.

 

My own logic tells me that as long as your GPU output (windows setting) is 60Hz you should be fine regardless of what kind of TV.

But I have been way off many times using logic with computers!


Rob Robson

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What is a MIP?

MIP = Main Instrument Panel. Some more info related to home cockpit building http://www.737ng.co.uk/mip.htm

 

Thanks for the info on the tv. I'll check that out when it comes time to buying.


Regards,

 

Kevin LaMal

"Facts Don't Care About Your Feelings" - Shapiro2024

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