737 NGX Autoland?

[Fabo 213]

 

 

This is a commonly held belief, but the APP mode only need be armed before selecting the 2nd A/P.

 

I thought radio signal must be present as well, but I am not sure.

[Spin737 102]

I thought radio signal must be present as well, but I am not sure.

That would need some more digging, but I when I've done autolands, SOP included an ID check before arming the APP. It was the same as the procedure from the FCTM for fail passive.

 

I do know that the LOC and G/S do not need to be captured before arming the APP and 2nd A/P.

[Fabo 213]

I don't know either. I usually arm second AP after LOC becomes active (when I also arm APP to catch GS... such is my SOP)

[Lek767 37]

I don't know either. I usually arm second AP after LOC becomes active (when I also arm APP to catch GS... such is my SOP)

 

If you arm APP mode without a radio signal being received, don't you end up flying an IAN approach instead of using the ILS (so FAC and G/P modes annunciated on the PFD)? I could very well be wrong here, as I've busted my controller and can't test it for myself at the moment, but I do recall ending up with LOC and G/P instead of G/S numerous times when arming APP too soon (before a valid glide slope signal was being received).

[sacrayton 3]

With the ILS Freq tuned on both Nav Radios, and course heading set on MCP,capture the Localizer and, and once established, go to APP mode.Once the G/S has been captured, the PFD will indicate "Single Channel Only." Once you see that, you can hit the second CMD Button, She will continue descent until 1500ft AGL and then go into Land 3 or CMD Mode, depending on which backup instrumentation you choose. This will indicate that the Autoland is active.

[Spin737 102]

With the ILS Freq tuned on both Nav Radios, and course heading set on MCP,capture the Localizer and, and once established, go to APP mode.Once the G/S has been captured, the PFD will indicate "Single Channel Only." Once you see that, you can hit the second CMD Button, She will continue descent until 1500ft AGL and then go into Land 3 or CMD Mode, depending on which backup instrumentation you choose. This will indicate that the Autoland is active.

 

 

If you arm APP mode without a radio signal being received, don't you end up flying an IAN approach instead of using the ILS (so FAC and G/P modes annunciated on the PFD)? I could very well be wrong here, as I've busted my controller and can't test it for myself at the moment, but I do recall ending up with LOC and G/P instead of G/S numerous times when arming APP too soon (before a valid glide slope signal was being received).

I've never flown a plane with IAN or fail-acive, so I don't know for certain. I do know what the FCTM says, and what my training and real-life experience was.

 

You don't need to be LOC cap or G/S before arming approach or for the 2nd A/P. Done it many times in real-life, so that's how Boeing works. Fabo has a different SOP, but that doesn't change the jet itself.

[Todd Moore 1]

One problem I am discovering is that the throttle doesn't come down to idle before touch down.  This makes the plane bounce more often than not, and I overran the end of the runway on one landing by a huge distance.  I am having to disconnect the autothrottle and bring it to idle before I touch down to correct this.  I am wondering if the design team is aware of this problem and are doing something about it.  I never have this problem with the 744 autoland.

[g_precentralis 191]

Never experienced such a problem. Can you upload a videoclip of that autoland?

[Todd Moore 1]

Not sure how to make one.

[BlakeWilliams 6]

Not sure how to make one.

After putting up a stink about your autoland issues only to reply quickly that the issue had been solved, from what I'm sure was user error, you come right back again saying that the developers are at fault on a totally different topic. I suggest you read the manuals. Engine thrust is modeled accurately, I assure you. All the answers are there champ.

[Todd Moore 1]

All I know is that when I leave things alone, nine times out of ten my aircraft bounces when I touch down.  The only thing I can attribute that to is that the engines do not come to idle.  When I disengage the auto throttle and bring it manually to idle, it settles nicely without a bounce.  I do not consider that user error.  Now as far as the whole auto-land issue, the manual was NOT clear on how to do it.  The ONLY thing I could find was to engage both command buttons.  It says nothing about tuning both radios to the ILS or to set both course buttons to the runway heading.  Even when I do everything right according to what I have been told here, it sometimes won't engage.  I do it the same way each time.  I am offended that you tell me that it is operator error.  I suggest that the manual be edited to include the instructions given here, and I suggest that the bouncing issue be investigated as well.  As far as saying that the developers were at fault, I said nothing of the kind.  I simply said I was wondering if the design team was aware of the problem I am having.  Nobody does anything perfectly, and software has its own issues.  If people don't know anything is wrong, how can any problems be fixed?

[Lek767 37]

It says nothing about tuning both radios to the ILS or to set both course buttons to the runway heading.

 

Hmm... Let's see:

 

• Enter the ILS frequency into the standby windows of both navigation radios on the pedestal – the larger outer knob controls the whole number digits, and the smaller inner knob on top controls the decimal digits. The frequency for EHAM’s Runway 18R is 110.10, which you can see on the FMC APPROACH REF page. Press the TFR (transfer) switch to make both radios active on the ILS frequency.

...

• Pan up to the MCP and enter the localizer front course 184 into both the captain and FO’s course windows.

Also:

 

Approach (APP) Mode Dual A/Ps

 

Approach mode allows both A/Ps to be engaged at the same time. Dual A/P operation provides either fail–operational or fail–passive operation through landing flare, touchdown and rollout, or through an automatic go–around. If a failure is detected, the flight controls respond to the A/P commanding the lesser control movement. If a failure occurs in one A/P, the failed channel is counteracted by the second channel such that both A/Ps disconnect with minimal airplane maneuvering and with aural and visual warnings to the pilot.

 

One VHF NAV receiver must be tuned to an ILS frequency before the approach mode can be selected. For a dual A/P approach, the second VHF NAV receiver must be tuned to the ILS frequency and the corresponding A/P engaged in CMD prior to 800 feet RA.

 

Localizer and Glideslope Armed

 

After setting the localizer frequency and course, pushing the APP switch selects the APP mode. The APP switch illuminates and VOR/LOC and G/S annunciate armed. The APP mode permits selecting the second A/P to engage in CMD. This arms the second A/P for automatic engagement after LOC and G/S capture and when descent below 1500 RA occurs.

And:

 

APP Mode

 

The approach mode arms AFDS to capture and track localizer and glideslope and can be engaged for dual or single autopilot operation.

 

One VHF NAV receiver must be tuned to an ILS frequency before approach mode can be engaged. With one VHF NAV receiver tuned, onside AFDS is enabled for guidance and operation.

 

For dual autopilot operation, both VHF NAV receivers must be tuned to the ILS frequency and both autopilots must be selected in CMD prior to 800 feet RA.

 

...

 

While engaged in the APP mode:

• the A autopilot and Captain’s F/D use information from Captain’s Course Selector and No. 1 VHF NAV receiver
• the B autopilot and First Officer’s F/D use information from First Officer’s Course Selector and No. 2 VHF NAV receiver
• different courses and/or frequencies for the two VHF NAV receivers can cause disagreement between Captain’s and First Officer’s F/D displays and affect A/P operation.

 

I could go on, but I hope you get the point by now. The answers you seek are present in not one, but multiple documents that come with the NGX package. If you still think the manual needs editing, I suggest you drop these people a friendly note:

 

Boeing Commercial Airplanes

P. O. Box 3707

Seattle, Washington 98124

206-655-1131

[BlakeWilliams 6]

All I know is that when I leave things alone, nine times out of ten my aircraft bounces when I touch down.  The only thing I can attribute that to is that the engines do not come to idle.  When I disengage the auto throttle and bring it manually to idle, it settles nicely without a bounce.  I do not consider that user error.  Now as far as the whole auto-land issue, the manual was NOT clear on how to do it.  The ONLY thing I could find was to engage both command buttons.  It says nothing about tuning both radios to the ILS or to set both course buttons to the runway heading.  Even when I do everything right according to what I have been told here, it sometimes won't engage.  I do it the same way each time.  I am offended that you tell me that it is operator error.  I suggest that the manual be edited to include the instructions given here, and I suggest that the bouncing issue be investigated as well.  As far as saying that the developers were at fault, I said nothing of the kind.  I simply said I was wondering if the design team was aware of the problem I am having.  Nobody does anything perfectly, and software has its own issues.  If people don't know anything is wrong, how can any problems be fixed?

 

Now its blatantly obvious that you're not reading the manuals through-and-through and once again suggest that there are flaws in what most find to be a completely superior and amazing model to the RW 737. You should research more and blame less. 

[icemarkom 59]

By the way, do you have crash detection enabled? If not, turn it on and try again. You will see that bounces no longer happen, but instead your aircraft is destroyed on collision with the ground.

 

What I suggest you do is spend some time learning how to land the plane yourself (use search on the forum and loom for my name - I was asking how to do it properly only a few weeks ago).

 

Also, find some time (real world KSFO-EDDM flight did it for me) to read the FCOM that comes with the package. You will learn tons about this wonderful creation.

[Todd Moore 1]

Blake, I was blaming nobody, I was simply reporting a problem I was experiencing.  Icemarko, I said the aircraft was bouncing, turning on crash detection will do nothing in that case.  To all, I have been flying my simulator for over ten years.  I KNOW how to land an aircraft.  I simply enjoy the novelty of letting the aircraft land itself.  To me, something isn't right in the execution, and I will be landing it manually from now on.  

Lek 767, thanks.  I could not find it on my own, even though I tried doing a text search on all the manuals.  I appreciate your help.