I just want to comment what you said on upgrading to SP2 and the time it takes.. It took me less then 45 mintes to do the whole upgrade process + about 15 minutes to complete the post security setup. So it's not a nightmare at all. And i have'nt got any incompatibility error since i'm with SP2 - go figure, where are all those ghost stories about that upgrade came from - seems to be MS bashing stuff again...Now, on performance issues i have a P4 3.6G with a Gig of memory and a NVDIA GeForce FX 5600. Most (if not all) sliders are at 100% and i have no problem either with sound, screens, FPS (running mostly at 35 fps or better). The only time i'm getting slow down (less then 20 FPS) is if i pick a very detail aircraft and put it as an AI aircraft where at that airport i can get 15 copy of that single aircraft... Thanks to project AI i solved that problem long ago by putting ''LOD friendly'' aircrafts in my AI pile - Or if i put a very detail one, i make sure it will not be use to much at any given time.Same situation with EA/GAMES.My son is addicted to Medal of Honnor... The game is running fine on my system. Still i recently downloaded the new demo (Pacific Assault) to find out that the new version is running very slow on it. So at some point next year there will be a kind of a push to upgrade my system for that new generation of games. CPU life cycle and/or graphic cards, is about 1.5 to 2 years, and i'm at that point. It's just a question of upgrading at the right time with the right rig to fit the needs of the new games.

Hello.,I don't think you are paranoid. I also do not think there is a conspiracy in the purest sense of the word., maybe just a little corporate arrogance.I have thrown a ton of money at this hobby and am a bit fed up with features such as force feedback. I believe many thousands of people have lost "use" of their joysticks, for example (at least in the FS world).People who have spent hard earned cash and seen their joysticks degraded. If i am wrong on this point then i would GLADLY be shot down in flames, but i sadly think i am not wrong.Everyone enters FS9 for different reasons and it is great fun, but for a certain percentage of people out there it just isn,t working, (maybe a small percentage., but a percentage nontheless). I do not feel i have wasted my money as their are some great games out there, but Flight Sim was my goal. Now i am looking at PS2 and online gaming etc...Oh wellCheersDan :-beerchug

>I have thrown a ton of money at this hobby and am a bit fed up>with features such as force feedback. I believe many thousands>of people have lost "use" of their joysticks, for example (at>least in the FS world).:-hmmm my joystick isn't force feedback and it works just fine with FS9. What it comes down to in the end is you can't stop the relentless advancement of technology. You always have the choice not to jump on the bandwagon though. I haven't bothered with force feedback for FS9 yet, but I do have a MOMO force wheel for racing sims and its a fantastic piece of kit. I sure wouldn't want to be without it becuase someone else didn't want to give up their aging T2 wheel or something...

ZeviousThanks for replying., its just that my joystick doesn't work since FS2000. Not a jot. I like flying the heavies but it feels like a goose-feather pillowcase. No resistance on the joystick. Nothing.If i am the only one suffering this, then i will be exposed as a total and complete prat. But i just cannot get my FF2 joystick to feel heavy, like flying a real 737, 747 etc.CheersDan :-(

Ah, I misunderstood you. You already have a FF joystick then but its not working? I'd think that'd be a hardware or possibly configuration issue. Certainly wouldn't have anything in particular to do with the implementation of force feedback in the sim. Does the stick work properly with other games?

Sorry for delay Zevious.I dont think it is a confguration problem as my joystick works great in fs2000., eratic in FS2 and not at all in FS9.I actually think that Microsoft have virtually removed all air forces in general. For example, if i edit aircraft.cfg the only forces one can edit are Ground, Bump, Crashes and Gear. Nothing for actually flying in the air??The forces are there on the runway, but once airborne it is like a boxer punching a bag with nobody behind it., all force is obselete.I would like to go to the Birmingham (UK) Fs show if i am not to late., because i still dont believe the joystick forces are working in FS9CheersDan

Sorry, I can't help you much. Like I said, I haven't bothered with FF for the sim yet so I can't really comment on it at all. However, in the racesim world there are a fair number of sims that feature pretty pathetic force feedback implementation so if that's the case with FS9, it wouldn't be the only sim to share the problem...

I am sorry to say this but bye, bye Microsoft.,Sony, PS2., on-line gaming here i come...Ciao

Well, okay then. Have fun :)I've owned many consoles in my time and afiac never found anything on any of them that even comes close to FS9 though. If you really like flight sims prepare to be hugely dissappointed. If otoh you like action games you're likely headed in the right direction...

>People who have spent hard earned cash and seen their>joysticks degraded. If i am wrong on this point then i would>GLADLY be shot down in flames, but i sadly think i am not>wrong.> Believe you are mistaken. Ive been using the FS since 1985, and seen each version improve it.... Wore out only one joystick, that was a CH, which is one of the most durable. IT lasted me over ten years, using it not less than 5 hours a day, many weeks seven days a week. Have also flown for as long as 37 hours without sleep, while flying around the world. All my fling is realtime, never use speed increases. My second joystick, is a MS Sidewinder Precision Pro, that I bought in 1995, and it still works as good as new. Dont know which one you are talking about, but I believe in paying a bit more for quality, it lasts longer than two or more cheap units and in the end is cheaper. No joystick will last if abused, or if people take it apart to see how it is made, etc... and if adjusted correctly for the aircraft you fly, it is dependable. If a person keeps using different aircraft, without adjusting sensitivity or null to fit it, they will have problems. If you do not adjust a joystick as it wears, its like not adjusting the brakes when they wear, neither will work as well as when new. Bob

>The forces are there on the runway, but once airborne it is>like a boxer punching a bag with nobody behind it., all force>is obselete.> If it works on the runway, that may be due to programming in the FS, if it does not work in the air, it may be the aircraft is not set for Force Feed. Personally dont use FF, maybe asking in a subject, "What is a good FF aircraft. Might get you some suggestions that will help. My favorite aircraft are made by Mike Stone, Chuck Dome... and Eaglesoft. Personally, wouldnt fly anything unless it is a GMAX. Bob

I find that ground shadows make the biggest impact. The other sliders don't add much to my framerates when I decrease them. When I turn scenery and aircraft shadows off, my framerates increase from 50% to 75%. Shadows must be treated like complex objects such as buildings and the like. There should be a way to descrease shadow intensity (like making them transparent or gray) instead of black and not including them in overcast situations. RH

>>> accept the fact that we must set the sliders>> halfway with our current harware.>> If you have a bit of time, before you fly play with the>sliders.>Many times you can get added performance, with slight changes.>Like setting top one at 86, instead of 100%... Then go back>and fly, to see what effect it had. Found it ran as well>there, as at 50%, but details were better. (Flying at 2500'>AGL)>> BUT, if you are not using XP, with SP2, then that can be the>best upgrade you can make to your system. XP is much better>than W98, and XP with SP2 upgrade,is a much better change than>going from W98 to XP.>> Id been holding off on the upgrade to SP2, as I heard it>took so much time to put impliment. Every day, had too many>things to do, to take the time to do it. Finally this week,>decided to just leave my computer on when finished, and have>it do it. Next morning had to reboot, and it again took lots>of time. But, then I was going out for the day.... When I>came back rebooted again. >> Loaded FS9, first without using FSAutoStart to see how it>worked. With all the junk I have in including Norton,>Webshots, Mailwasher, etc.. loaded my framerates for FS9>JUMPED from an average of 8-10fps to 18.2-19.8fps... (Locked>at 20)>> Will try it today, running FSAutoStart first, as Ive noticed>installing SP2, not only updated the software - It Turned on>every process that I'd had turned off. Counted over 46>processes and programs in memory.... >> I Should have Upgraded to SP2, ASAP...Kingair, please post the results of your explorations here. I'm thinking about upgrading to SP2+FS9.1, but really scared off by the people who posted their experiences with SP2 in a neighboring discussion. Among them btw are very experienced and professional PC guys/simmers whom I tend to trust. I don't really believe Sp2 had originally anything to do with spurring up FS9 or alike at all. DirectX 9.0c, also deals more with the newer technologies rather than with a 2-3 year program. So a 100% gain in the performance you refer to after SP2 sounds a bit, hmm, paranoic. But I'm really interested to hear about the results and thank you for your time.

I agree with that. Please post SP2 results with FS2004. I have read a lot about folks who either are impressed with the results or are displeased.Thanks,RH

Rain, rain, go away... Here I sit on the Runway, hardly a cloud in the sky, yet its raining all around me... :-sun1 Framerates depend a lot on _where_ you are, and how much addin scenery you have. As I fly only the 182, B350, and B1900, my airports of choice are all GA.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/98527.jpg With the upgrade to SP2, I can get good framerates in the Desert or Mountains without too many addons. In Orange County, where John Wayne Airport, with lots of traffic almost every gate filled, on the ground get 14-16 FPS. In the past, had to turn traffic down, now can leave it at 100%. Makes for easy Taxi to runways. As soon the nose wheel goes up, rates jump back up to 18-19fps. When landing, Ive noticed all big aircraft have a nose up attitude, so I keep it up on the glidepath, with an ILS dont need to see where Im going to touchdown, also keeps the framerates up. Without it, I just "raise my seat a bit" and I just land in a "flare" attitude, with power to keep me on the glideslope. When close to the runway, begin pulling that power back, and grease it in on the mains, then let down the nose. Ive like to practice trying to keep the nose wheel up, until I cant. Bob