What you say is very interesting to me, William. I hate to admit this, but I'm one of those guys who went quickly to heavy aircraft without spending enough time learning to fly single engines(:-(). One of the problems I had was that, in trying to keep religiously to the dictum that one should pitch first and then trim to hold attitude, I found I spent so much time trying to get this right that I could not focus on other aspects of the flight, and got extremely frustrated. To be honest, I think it is a lot easier in the sim to use trim as a way of changing pitch than by putting back pressure on the stick(do you know why this is not recommended/permitted in the real aircraft?).Don't know if the above makes sense to you, but I am going to try your recommendations for attitude flying. Is it a question of experimenting with the pitch sensitivities until you get the settings that feel right(I use a Microsoft Sidewinder Pro. I also own the Saitek X45 Throttle and Stick Combo, but haven't tried it yet)? Hmmm...I didn't realise the screen resolution could affect flight? Currently, I use 1600x1200 and fly the PMDG 737NG exclusively.Many thanks for taking time to give me a detailed description of your flying technique. I would love to go back and get this right!BR,Frank

>To be honest, I think it is a lot easier in the sim to use trim as>a way of changing pitch than by putting back pressure on the stick>(do you know why this is not recommended/permitted in the real>aircraft?).For one simple reason. As you level out from a climb, you start to accelerate. As you accelerate, the nose wants to rise and thus requires more trim to correct. The trim wheel makes very fine adjustments so you would have to be cranking the trim wheel rapidly to compensate (unless you're lucky enough to have electric trim, but you'd still may be holding it for a while). It's actually much easier to pitch with the yoke than to adjust pitch with the trim. If you're trying to pitch with the trim you're more than likely experience porpusing. You'd pitch over with the trim, and it'd speed up and nose up needing more trim. You also have no feeling of the forces on the control surfaces using the trim so how would you know much you need to put in?The mantra we use in the real world for trimming is "Pitch, Power, Trim" You want to pitch for level flight, then adjust power since the RPMs are going to rise and may reach red line, then you start trimming to reduce pressure on the stick. The main purpose of the trim is to reduce the amount of force you have to use on the stick/yoke at any given time.The thing about the "death grip" is that you tend to over control, and also that you lose some of the sensation of pressure on your hand since you're putting so much of your own pressure on the yoke. A gentle grip is needed with smooth, gentle movements of the yoke/stick.The CH Yoke with it's spring centering actually feels about right for feeling your trim, you should be able to have it trimmed so that you feel no tention from the springs. In real life, it would be the pressure of the wind hitting the control surfaces causing this force and not a spring and may neutralize it's forces at a poition forward or back from it's actual centered position, but the concept of neutralizing the forces with trim is the same.Also, the faster you go, the less input you need for the same rate of change. In cruise, you may only need to just barely nudge the yoke to change it.----------------------------------------------------------------John S. MorganReal World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satillite, Private 130+ hrs.Virtual: MSFS 2004"There is a feeling about an airport that no other piece of ground can have. No matter what the name of the country on whose land it lies, an airport is a place you can see and touch that leads to a reality that can only be thought and felt." - The Bridge Across Forever: A Love Story by Richard Bach

hi frank, if you're framerates are ok then you can leave the resolution alone. for starters though it wouldn't hurt to run at whatever the resolution defaults to. you'll notice an immediate change in framerates. also be sure to turn on AA in the video card to smooth out the edges. i've noticed also that running everything at default settings straightens out alot of quirks and other small things that didn't seem to work quite right. i guess you can use trim instead of the yoke for small pitch changes maybe. if i'm wrong i'm sure someone will correct me. trimming isn't hard at all and one thing that can make it difficult is where the trim button is on your stick. if it's in a not so good place then as you're holding an attitude with the stick and trying to trim and the attitude starts bobbing up and down because the stick is moving as you're trying to trim then it can be a pain. change the setting for the trim button to another button or even a key on the keyboard, maybe even another stick. once you know how much trim you need you can start trimming while you're changing your pitch attitude alittle bit. oh yea, it's a good idea to keep the desktop resolution the same as whatever you run the sim in, make sure they're the same. you don't have to fly with the defaults but it's good to see the difference in performance. any aircraft you fly always use small and slow movements or barely enough pressure to make the needles start moving and oh what a smooth flight you'll have!!! william

when i mentioned flying with the defaults i meant default settings. william

>>The mantra we use in the real world for trimming is "Pitch, Power, >>Trim" You want to pitch for level flight,Not quite right. The efficient and braodly promulgated methods are:PAT: Power Attitude Trim. This is the order of actions when initiating a climb, a descent or recovering from a descent. You set the power, then the attitude to achieve the required speed for the power setting and then and then do you trim.APT: Attitude Power Trim. This is the order of actions when receovering from a climb. In most light singles all climbs are done at full power, so to level out the actions are set the attitude (cancel the climb), wait for speed to get to cruising speed, power back, then and ONLY then do you trim. If I were to be particuarly anal, when powering back you do not look in the cockpit, you estimate the power, trim and then and only then adjust when in trimmed level flight as in the RW lookout opportunities must be maximised and heads down out of trim just makes life complicated.As you can see, the trend is the aircraft is trimmed only when you have achieved your target speed and before you need to go heads down or perform any kind of complicated task that splits your attention. In addition never trim in a turn.

In my 30 yr old cessna 152 there is three trim setting position only. t/o, neutral and app. We always set it to t/o while taking off else its too much pain to hand. Dont know about newer cessnas but if its windy and two fatsos are there and you took off with trim at neutral position get ready for some real excercise to your hands!!

thanks, it's good to hear. william

Hehe. I knew I was forgetting to mention something: the decent one. Yeah, "Pitch, Power, Trim" is when levelling out from climb only. ----------------------------------------------------------------John S. MorganReal World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satillite, Private 130+ hrs.Virtual: MSFS 2004"There is a feeling about an airport that no other piece of ground can have. No matter what the name of the country on whose land it lies, an airport is a place you can see and touch that leads to a reality that can only be thought and felt." - The Bridge Across Forever: A Love Story by Richard Bach

I guess I must be from a different "trim school"! ;-)Speaking just about light GA aircraft, I never learned to leave trim neutral for takeoff, and always put in some nose up trim. I do not suggest leaving trim at neutral for takeoff.On the SEL Cessnas I've flown / FS designed there are usually "TO" trim marks, and these are always in the nose up range. The same for the Beech A36, where there is a green TO band in the nose up range.On the Pipers I have flown (1500+ hours in these) we always put in some nose up trim (there is no TO mark, so we eyeball it).My Piper Dakota POH even states that trim should be applied so that the aircraft can be rotated with minimal back pressure on the yoke, and you can be certain that this will be nose up trim. Of course, the amount of trim will differ based on the aircraft and the loading. On the Dakota, with a heavy nose, and just two folks up front, I would never takeoff with neutral trim. I dial in some nose up, and when I rotate I toggle the electric trim switch as required to relieve back pressure while also aiming for either Vx or Vy on the speed, depending upon the type of departure I am making.On an aircraft like the Arrow IV, with its generally ineffective T-tail stabilator, I put in a large amount of nose up trim at take off. If not, it would require two hands to pull back on the yoke to rotate, and I always want a hand on the throttle. As a general rule of thumb for aircraft such as Piper / Cessna / Beech / Mooney, yes, trim nose up for takeoff, and keep the yoke "light" (trim off control forces). Once airborne, adjust trim for climb, so that the aircraft will essentially maintain climb rate / speed hands off. Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...R_FORUM_LOU.jpg

thanks alot. that was another question i had, retrimming right after takeoff. william

Yes Lou but as you know there are very few light aircraft that are properly rigged and nearly none in the rental fleet...especially the trim tab that can EASILY get bumped into and bent. Therefore, believing any marks on the trim wheel is poor practice. So, for your first flight in any given aircraft, choose neutral or a LITTLE nose up trim and take off but then climb out to a thousand feet agl or so and trim the machine to fly hands off at VY and THAT is your T/O setting MINUS just a TINY bit of nose up trim so you don't launch before you reach VR and maybe TWO TOUCHES if the winds are gusty. Almost every month in AOPA or other pubs, I read about accidents that resulted from "groud effect" take offs that ended in grief.Then, upon lift off put that TOUCH of nose up trim back in and there you go...zero yoke pressure climbing out at VY. This technique WAY beats constant fooling around with trim when you have LOTS of better things to do in one of the most accident prone regimes of flight...especially under IFR conditions.Regards

<>That is entirely correct. However, when flying a machine that has elec trim...which is smoother than any human twirling of a trim wheel, AND if you have spent the time to figure out what deck angle and power combination yields a given airspeed...as we all do right?...then the best RW practice is PITCH and TRIM simultaneously while power is being set. Doing so results in a MUCH smoother transition than holding a bunch of yoke pressure while you set your power AND scan for traffic AND respond to ATC.With elec trim, its all one motion actually and works very well once you know how much trim motion is going to be required to accomplish the transition. Takes some practice but yields a large reward.

>>especially the trim tab that can EASILY get bumped into and bentYour thinking of the fixed tabs, not the trim tab. You can't accidently walk into it and bend it!!>>Then, upon lift off put that TOUCH of nose up trim back in and there >>you go...zero yoke pressure climbing out at VY. This technique WAY >>beats constant fooling around with trim when you have LOTS of better >>things to do in one of the most accident prone regimes of >>flight...especially under IFR conditions.Are you serious? You trim ONLY when you have achived your target speed.>>maybe TWO TOUCHES if the winds are gusty. Almost every month in AOPA or >>other pubs, I read about accidents that resulted from "groud effect" >>take offs that ended in grief.What on earth do gusty winds have to do with trimming? Ground effect take-offs also have nothing to do with trimming. A ground effect take off is where you accelerate to take-off saftey speed after Vr when airbourne about than one half-wingspan feet above the runway. Usually used when the airfield is hot and high.

well now, that makes all the default aircraft takeoff at their rotation speeds doesn't it? it seems to answer the BIG takeoff problem. mmmmmmmm.......so maybe the defaults DO fly correctly. by the way i just got the CJ1 from eaglesoft. VERY nice aircraft! william