Hand flying tips?

[Boeing or not going 578]

Any tips for someone who is struggling to get a hang of the FBW system? Should I leave auto throttle engaged at all times? I'm used to turning AP/AT off and using the FD. But really struggling on approach and landing. The airplane really wants to change pitch quickly after every little adjustment I make to pitch, trim, or throttle.

[777simmer 117]

The 777 is actually quite sensitive.

More sensitive than the 737NGX and way more sensitve than the 737 classic that feels like driving a truck in comparison.

(I actually like the feel of the 737 more.)

 

What the 777 does not do is change anything rapidly.

It is a big airplane and that together with its FBW systems smooths out all kind of things.

 

Anyway...maybe you need to decrease controller sensitivity a bit in the FSX menu or change those sensitivity curves in FSUIPC.

[Boeing or not going 578]

I hand fly the 747 and MD-11 with no problems, it's only the 777 that is giving me difficulty.

[T1492 5]

I think a main difference with 777 is that there is an automatic trimming effect as far as I can see.

 

So using trim switch does not seem so necessary except when trimming for take off.   At all other times deflecting the yoke until the desired pitch is achieved, then slowly relaxing it, will hold the pitch.

 

That is how I think I am seeing it work.

 

Shomei Yokouchi

[777simmer 117]

I think a main difference with 777 is that there is an automatic trimming effect as far as I can see.

 

So using trim switch does not seem so necessary except when trimming for take off.   At all other times deflecting the yoke until the desired pitch is achieved, then slowly relaxing it, will hold the pitch.

 

That is how I think I am seeing it work.

 

Shomei Yokouchi

No that is not how it works.

 

We had a discussion about the FBW system and trim before (I dont know....a month ago...maybe more) maybe you can search for that if you are interested.

I hand fly the 747 and MD-11 with no problems, it's only the 777 that is giving me difficulty.

Ok, then the only thing the manual says is that if you have any unusual behavior....delete the FSUIPC.ini file and let it rebuild during the next FSX boot.

 

You will loose all joystick settings....so maybe back that old .ini file up or take a note of how things were setup thus far.

[martin-w 3,234]

Any tips for someone who is struggling to get a hang of the FBW system? Should I leave auto throttle engaged at all times? I'm used to turning AP/AT off and using the FD. But really struggling on approach and landing. The airplane really wants to change pitch quickly after every little adjustment I make to pitch, trim, or throttle.

 

 

I don't find the following behaviour realistic, in regard to my research on the T7...

 

Fly straight and level at 250 knots or so. A/T on. Increase speed by 30 knots. The nose will rise as speed increases, which is normal. Now push your controller forward to maintain 0 vertical speed until the speed is stabilised, you will find the T7 in trim. It shouldn't be. Would be nice if someone tested this in case it's just my set up. It's not a huge issue of course, but certainly not as real as it gets, unless I'm ignorant of how the T7 works.

 

Biggest issue is when you do trim. As speed increase [or decreases] you try to trim but nothing initially happens, so you trim again, and again. Then suddenly the pitch changes rapidly. It's as if there's a delay built in that shouldn't be there. Everything I've read about the T7 trim tells me that trimming for speed should feel no different to any aircraft, it should trim out the speed increase just the same. This doesn't impress me because handling is the most important aspect of the sim to me.

 

I'm going to reinstall FSUIPC in case that's an issue.

[T1492 5]

No that is not how it works.

 

 

Oh ok.

 

Can anyone confirm that this is what is happening with the PM 777 then?   I was sure I had managed to trim my 777 without yet using a trim button! :lol:       Maybe it's my imagination then.

[G MIDY 101]

This might be good reading.

 

http://www.davi.ws/avionics/TheAvionicsHandbook_Cap_11.pdf

[777simmer 117]

Oh ok.

 

Can anyone confirm that this is what is happening with the PM 777 then?   I was sure I had managed to trim my 777 without yet using a trim button! :lol:       Maybe it's my imagination then.

It does not seem like imagination because Martin W has the same experience.

 

I dont have the PMDG777 yet but I cant imagine PMDG programmed the 777 like this.

The 777 does not automatically trim to maintain airspeed (Airbus does).

You have to trim out speed changes just like in a Cessna.

 

What happens if you try to trim by using the yoke switches with your mouse (if this is possible)?

If that works then it is FSUIPC (if you are using that) or something else that messes with your hardware trim switch.

 

Are you guys using FSUIPC?

Maybe try the normal FSX way without FSX.

 

Is it possible to go into the 777 CDU and choose a key select or button select for stab trim up/down?

If so, then first delete the trim funtion for your hardware in FSUIPC.

Then select your keys for trimming in the PMDG777 CDU and then link this keyselect through FSUIPC to your hardware buttons.

[Boeing or not going 578]

I don't have FSUIPC set up to configure any controls I use so I don't see how there should be any conflict here

[3-2-1-Now 126]

I can't figure out the technique either. I get the whole trimmed for speed thing, but I can't fly the flight path I want.

 

I checked several sources now (all real-world) and the wording is such that it strongly implies the system will auto-trim to maintain flight path.

 

It is C*U law (C Star U), meaning it will maintain the FLIGHT PATH automatically (Airbus style via auto-trim), and in the trimmed condition, will maintain speed (so increase in thrust will result in climb in order to maintain speed).

 

Thus, if you fly manually, and stabilize the speed at e.g. 250 kts when levelling off, when you let go of the stick (return to neutral), it will trim for 250 kts and level flight (assuming you maintain good speed control). It seems this is not quite how the sim is operating however.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

[Boeing or not going 578]

I can't figure out the technique either. I get the whole trimmed for speed thing, but I can't fly the flight path I want.

 

I checked several sources now (all real-world) and the wording is such that it strongly implies the system will auto-trim to maintain flight path.

 

It is C*U law (C Star U), meaning it will maintain the FLIGHT PATH automatically (Airbus style via auto-trim), and in the trimmed condition, will maintain speed (so increase in thrust will result in climb in order to maintain speed).

 

Thus, if you fly manually, and stabilize the speed at e.g. 250 kts when levelling off, when you let go of the stick (return to neutral), it will trim for 250 kts and level flight (assuming you maintain good speed control). It seems this is not quite how the sim is operating however.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

 

My troubles show up on climb and approach. I can't descend or climb at a good smooth rate without the trim either jumping up or down on me. Is this flying style just like Airbus where they want you to use Captain Otto?

[martin-w 3,234]

It does not seem like imagination because Martin W has the same experience.

 

I dont have the PMDG777 yet but I cant imagine PMDG programmed the 777 like this.

The 777 does not automatically trim to maintain airspeed (Airbus does).

You have to trim out speed changes just like in a Cessna.

 

What happens if you try to trim by using the yoke switches with your mouse (if this is possible)?

If that works then it is FSUIPC (if you are using that) or something else that messes with your hardware trim switch.

 

Are you guys using FSUIPC?

Maybe try the normal FSX way without FSX.

 

Is it possible to go into the 777 CDU and choose a key select or button select for stab trim up/down?

If so, then first delete the trim funtion for your hardware in FSUIPC.

Then select your keys for trimming in the PMDG777 CDU and then link this keyselect through FSUIPC to your hardware buttons.

 

Yep, it's not right for sure Rob, unless I've gone bonkers. If Boeing designed it like this they would be incompetent.

 

In fact, if you observe the trim indicator, [i trim with the keyboard] then there's initially no response as you hit the keyboard. It takes several taps of the keyboard before the trim indicator registers any change. It's like there's a huge lag.

 

As you hit the keys on the keyboard, you can see the trim switches moving on the yoke... but initially no response from the aircraft, or aircrafts trim setting indicator.

 

To be honest, I'm amazed this got through testing. Unless it's something that got corrupted after release.

 

I use the default keys on the keyboard for trim, and my joystick is set up via FSX, not FSUIPC.

My troubles show up on climb and approach. I can't descend or climb at a good smooth rate without the trim either jumping up or down on me. Is this flying style just like Airbus where they want you to use Captain Otto?

 

Yep, that's it.

 

It's the lag I think. Trim inputs have no effect initially... and then they suddenly come in, when you don't expect it.

[martin-w 3,234]

I can't figure out the technique either. I get the whole trimmed for speed thing, but I can't fly the flight path I want.

 

I checked several sources now (all real-world) and the wording is such that it strongly implies the system will auto-trim to maintain flight path.

 

It is C*U law (C Star U), meaning it will maintain the FLIGHT PATH automatically (Airbus style via auto-trim), and in the trimmed condition, will maintain speed (so increase in thrust will result in climb in order to maintain speed).

 

Thus, if you fly manually, and stabilize the speed at e.g. 250 kts when levelling off, when you let go of the stick (return to neutral), it will trim for 250 kts and level flight (assuming you maintain good speed control). It seems this is not quite how the sim is operating however.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

 

 

I think your first paragraph says it all Robin.

 

Boeing didn't design the T7 to be HARD to fly. We absolutely should be able to fly the flight paths we want and we absolutely should "get the trimmed for speed thing."

 

After my research, I interpret the auto trim the same way as you do. Trim is auto for configuration changes, like sudden thrust increase, or flap deployment... but the T7 should trim for speed just like any other aircraft, it should not feel that different to the pilot. It should be easier if anything, not harder.

 

The second point of course, is the weird way you can "not trim" and just maintain level flight with the elevators. If you do so, the end result after speed is stabilised, is the T7 in perfect trim. This too is completely wrong according to my research. It shouldn't be in trim at a higher speed, with no trim  adjustment.

 

Apologies to PMDG if I'm wrong re the second point, but I can find nothing on the net that suggests some kind of trimming with elevator input is realistic.

[777simmer 117]

After my research, I interpret the auto trim the same way as you do. Trim is auto for configuration changes, like sudden thrust increase, or flap deployment... but the T7 should trim for speed just like any other aircraft, it should not feel that different to the pilot. It should be easier if anything, not harder.

That is correct.

 

You know what....maybe you are having a similar problem as the person in another thread.

He could not trim because the PMDG777 is made so realistic that just like the real aircraft it will not allow trim imputs nose down while you are pulling on the yoke (and vice versa).

You can only trim in the direction you are pushing or pulling the yoke.

 

Sounds logic......but maybe when you let go of the yoke it is not perfectly centered!

The yoke could then send an ever so small pitch up signal while you are trying to trim down.

 

Try increasing the dead band of the pitch axis!

 

 

For info.....the real aircraft trim works like this:

1)You trim down or up with the trim switches

2)this changes the target speed in the PFC (primary flight computers) by approximately 10kt for every one second you hold that switch

3)the PFC sends signals that move the elevator to achieve the trim speed (that is not shown anywhere....you trim by feel just like in a Cessna)

4)the stabiliser is then moved until elevator and stabiliser are streamlined

"The second point of course, is the weird way you can "not trim" and just maintain level flight with the elevators. If you do so, the end result after speed is stabilised, is the T7 in perfect trim. This too is completely wrong according to my research. It shouldn't be in trim at a higher speed, with no trim  adjustment."

 

And this is correct as well.

I am also sure 99% sure that this "airbus like behavior" is not what PMDG modelled.

Like I said I dont have the plane yet (few more days...) but it just cant be.

 

Something is screwing your plane up.