Kai Tak IGS 13 approach?

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Obligatory point out that Autoland does not require CAT III...

[Driverab330 74]

Obligatory point out that Autoland does not require CAT III...

That's Correct. The airplane can do an ILS auto land on any rwy with a ILS system. CAT I, CAT II and CAT III on the airport side is the differences to the integrity and stability of the LOC and G/S signals. ie CAT III ILS has standby power, it's own GS and LOC protected area etc etc.

 

Having LAND 3/ LAND 2 annouciaed on the PFD only means on the airplane side system wise the autopilot is capable of performing an Fail operation/fail passive auto land maneuver such that the airplane will be able to contiune to land ( fail operational) or mainatain a stable flight path ( fail passive ) if one or more system compnoents failed during the approach.

 

The autopilot basically tracks the LOC and G/S signals, doing the IGS if you don't do anything the airplane will fly into the checker board. Because the airplane doesn't know if the ILS is co located with the rwy, all it does is it tracks the LOC and G/S until such a height which it begins to flare. That's why you don't need the FM to work to do ILS autoland.

 

Still remember an incident a long time ago about someone who didn't read the chart properly and tried do an auto land on to JFK 22R ILS and almost ended up on the grass. Also some of the airports like WMKK (kuala lumpur) the GS signal is unstable below 200RA into one of the rwy for some reason, in that case auto land is not possible as well.

[777simmer 117]

All good and correct info above.

 

 

Just want to point out that performing an autoland on a Cat I or II approach in actual Cat III weather, is not allowed!

Even if the weather is right at Cat I minimums, leaving the AP engaged and performing an autoland could put you in a bad spot. Even if you break clouds at 200ft AGL! Hard to correct if things get screwed up at such a low altitude.

As said above, ground equipment might not be accurate enough, possibly no ground backup systems, and cars/airplanes might be driving through the Loc/GS beam resulting in flight path deviations.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

Just want to point out that performing an autoland on a Cat I or II approach in actual Cat III weather, is not allowed!

 

Just for clarity (for the others, mostly):

Yes and no.

 

[FAA-specific mumbojumbo]

If I was flying into IAD on a severe clear day, I could certainly request the approach from ATC for currency, and they'd likely accommodate it.  We don't usually have enough CAT III days in the States in general to maintain crew/aircraft currency, so you have to do it on clear days sometimes.

 

You're definitely right that you shouldn't do it on an installation that doesn't have a CAT III approach certified at the location (lack of OFZ protection to a CAT III level, and so on), though.  There is a certain amount of error allowed in CAT I certification that isn't allowed for CAT III for obvious reasons, which means you aren't guaranteed a reliable signal to the ground which is important for an autoland.

 

Additionally, it's important to let ATC know because, if you haven't noticed already, there are ILS HOLD SHORT and regular HOLD SHORT lines.  ATC uses the regular lines at all times ILS approaches are not in use (less than 800' ceiling and 2SM vis), and will instruct pilots to "hold short of the [Runway Name] ILS Critical Area" at any time that area needs protection (at any time someone requires the protection of a CAT III approach).  So, as long as ATC has been notified and you've been cleared on the approach, the weather isn't really what matters: it's the fact that the installation is capable of CAT III certification, and that the ILS critical area is being protected from incursions (by aircraft and ground vehicles).

[/FAA-specific mumbojumbo]

 

TL;DR:

The plane will follow the signal from a CAT I, II, or III ILS installation without knowing to what level it's certified.  The issue is that the installation isn't being interfered with by terrain and ground objects.

[777simmer 117]

Eeeh, no.

Good info Kyle (mean that), but I think you misunderstood what I meant.

 

You cant do an autoland on a Cat1 certified runway when the actual weather is at cat 3 minima.

 

Cat1 minima are usually 200ft AGL. If you dont see the Rwy (or aproach lights, etc etc) at the DH (200ft) then you have to go around.

You cant just say;" oh well, we see nothing so we will just do an autoland then" and continue without seeing a thing.

(not even when you let ATC know. It is just not legal!)

 

You can practice it like you said on a nice day if you let ATC know.

But you cant decide to turn a cat1 approach into a cat3 approach in actual conditions.

[zmak 331]

Okay I give up and need some help. VHHX for the current airac needs to be manually edited according to the link http://www.vapap.com/kai-tak-airport. I have now done this exactly as per instructions but Im still not getting VHHX showing in the 777. 

 

Here are the 2 files (extract) edited in the pmdg Nav data folder.

Can anyone spot an error? thanx for any help

 

 

 

wpNavAPT

 

;AIRAC Cycle : 1401 (09/JAN/2014 - 05/FEB/2014) - Ver.2

 

GEN FRANCISCO JAVIER MINMMTM31 08366319 22.283233 -97.859942000.0031900080

GEN FRANCISCO JAVIER MINMMTM36 04265005 22.289822 -97.864414000.0000500080

HONG KONG INTL          VHHH07L12467073 22.310917 113.897964111.1007300022

HONG KONG INTL          VHHH07R12467073 22.296675 113.899442109.3007300027

HONG KONG INTL          VHHH25L12467253 22.307431 113.932820108.9025300027

HONG KONG INTL          VHHH25R12467253 22.321122 113.929636110.9025300022

HONG KONG-OLD           VHHX13 10930136 22.324850 114.193176111.9008800015

HONG KONG-OLD           VHHX31 10930316 22.304401 114.216064109.9031600015

RAJKOT                  VARK05 06056048 22.304142  70.773717000.0004800438

RAJKOT                  VARK23 06056228 22.314220  70.785331110.9022800423

 

AIRPORTS.TXT

;AIRAC Cycle : 1401 (09/JAN/2014 - 05/FEB/2014) - Ver.2

 

VGEG 22.257022  91.822208

MMTM 22.289822 -97.864414

VHHH 22.308889 113.914722

VHHX 22.316959 114.202621

VABO 22.330000  73.218889

MULM 22.336111 -83.641945

OOFD 22.354420  56.484800

[Mike777 163]

I have now done this exactly as per instructions but Im still not getting VHHX showing in the 777.

 

Hi, Zoran,

 

Both files look good to me.  Only question regarding them would be whether you used tabs instead of spaces anywhere in the lines of data. (The lines for General Francisco Javier are scrambled up in your post but I assume the data is on the same line as the name in each entry.)

 

You also need to have a file for the approaches and departures in the FSX>PMDG>SIDSTARS folder.  I'm not sure whether you will see the airport show up in your FMC without that file.  It is called "VHHX.txt".  I think the VAPAP auto installer program installs that file, but I don't know for sure.  If you run that auto installer you may need to then manually reinstall the data in the two files as you already did.

 

Mike

 

PS- Just noticed you list the airports file as airports.TXT .  It should be Airports.DAT Sometimes notepad switches the file extension name. (The wpnavapt file does end in TXT.)

[zmak 331]

Mike, thanks for having a look. I used notepad to open them but they are both listed as DAT in the folder and in properties, the above is just a typo

 

I used cut n paste and they look a bit garbled here but sit in the right place in the original file.

 

Yes I placed the star file in manually but it went through okay in Auto as well

 

Ive flown this approach 20 times but this is first time Im having problems. I will just keep banging away at it until I find the error, that usually works lol.

[Mike777 163]

 

 

they are both listed as DAT in the folder and in properties

 

Looks to me like wpnavapt should end in txt., not .dat, while the other does end in dat.

 

I know how annoying these glitches can be - a comma instead of a period or some other tiny mistake like that.

 

Mike

[zmak 331]

well done Mike! That was the problem, I will test it when I have time tonight but that it could only be it

cheers

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

You cant do an autoland on a Cat1 certified runway when the actual weather is at cat 3 minima.

 

Yeah.  Missed your inclusion of the word "weather" in your post.  Too jumpy to shoot down that CAT III Autoland simism...what can I say...?

[777simmer 117]

No problem ofcourse.

 

Thx for confirming!

[stevekirks 3]

That's Correct. The airplane can do an ILS auto land on any rwy with a ILS system. CAT I, CAT II and CAT III on the airport side is the differences to the integrity and stability of the LOC and G/S signals. ie CAT III ILS has standby power, it's own GS and LOC protected area etc etc.

 

Having LAND 3/ LAND 2 annouciaed on the PFD only means on the airplane side system wise the autopilot is capable of performing an Fail operation/fail passive auto land maneuver such that the airplane will be able to contiune to land ( fail operational) or mainatain a stable flight path ( fail passive ) if one or more system compnoents failed during the approach.

 

The autopilot basically tracks the LOC and G/S signals, doing the IGS if you don't do anything the airplane will fly into the checker board. Because the airplane doesn't know if the ILS is co located with the rwy, all it does is it tracks the LOC and G/S until such a height which it begins to flare. That's why you don't need the FM to work to do ILS autoland.

 

Still remember an incident a long time ago about someone who didn't read the chart properly and tried do an auto land on to JFK 22R ILS and almost ended up on the grass. Also some of the airports like WMKK (kuala lumpur) the GS signal is unstable below 200RA into one of the rwy for some reason, in that case auto land is not possible as well.

Best explanation I've seen for this...thanks for taking the time to write it out. Now I won't feel like such a dummy when the LAND3 lights up.

[francisleung 5]

Guys, just searched Kai Tak IGS and found this thread. I'm sharing one of my few successful landing on the T7, enjoy and don't stress out about the delay in getting SP1:

 

https://vimeo.com/98406226 

 

Francis Leung

 

[wde12 19]

I've now recorded 22 (on my 23rd) IGS13 approaches with the PMDG T7.  Simply a stunning combination with Fly Tampa Kai Tak

 

THANK YOU PMDG (and Flytampa of course)

 

Agreed. FT's Kai Tak is my personal favorite. There is no other scenery like it. The only thing that keeps me from flying it more often is the AIRAC/FMC issue. Once you update your FMC data, my understanding is that you have to reinstall the VHHX data. Problem is, this data isn't compatible with PFPX. I always have to create a VHHH flightplan and then modify the end. This means that, say for example a CAE flight from KLAX, has to be entered manually into the FMC. I know I know. Lazy. But a pain nevertheless.