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Packed passenger plane was left flying on autopilot after BOTH pilots fell asleep in the cockpit!

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Happens a lot more than you think it does...

 

Sleeping pilots, or Daily Mail plaigerism?

 

:lol:

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Sleeping pilots, or Daily Mail plaigerism?

 

:lol:

 

Knowing the harshness of UK libel laws, and that the Daily Mail can probably afford a longer court case than most of us, probably best not to answer that question :P.

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The pilots, if they did not have enough sleep and being as experienced as they are to know if they have had enough rest or not, should not have taken the risk to fly, stated to their boss BEFORE boarding the craft that they were not in a fit state to work and let their boss sort it out.

 

It doesn't work that way, if it did there would be no need for working hour regulations in transport industry.

For many pilots there are two options, fly tired or get fired. If you disagree with the airline's schedule what prevents the airline from firing you and get someone else who is ready to fly tired to replace you? 

In the end the extreme competition between airlines, struggle to make profit and inadequate regulations are the things to blame, not pilots who either have to fly tired or lose their job.

 

I believe the schedules can often be so tight that you simply can't avoid flying fatigued. 

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It doesn't work that way, if it did there would be no need for working hour regulations in transport industry.

For many pilots there are two options, fly tired or get fired. If you disagree with the airline's schedule what prevents the airline from firing you and get someone else who is ready to fly tired to replace you? 

In the end the extreme competition between airlines, struggle to make profit and inadequate regulations are the things to blame, not pilots who either have to fly tired or lose their job.

 

I believe the schedules can often be so tight that you simply can't avoid flying fatigued.

 

Exactly, Graham has no idea what it is like operating in that kind of environment.


Rob Prest

 

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I believe the schedules can often be so tight that you simply can't avoid flying fatigued. 

 

Which is down to airlines to manage. Hence why I mentioned that airlines that overload and pressure their staff should not be able to run an airline.

If that doesnt happen, which would be a government decision, then that would entail that any future airlines crashing because of overworked pilot error can be placed directly back at the government responsible.

Could you ever see that happening? I couldn't. It would be the pilots that would carry all of the blame as usual.

Money should never come before safety but we all know that each country in this world puts money before safety yet always preaches the former.

What a load of codswallop this world is and plonkers are those that run it.

For many pilots there are two options, fly tired or get fired.

 

If that is true then why all the anti-terrorism rubbish that is rammed in our face at the airports when, after being made to leave a bottle of water in a bin bag, you can board a plane that then contains a threat just as dangerous, from tired pilots and directly from the airline itself that is trying to maintain safety and minimise risks, as any supposed terrorist/device being onboard.

Exactly, Graham has no idea what it is like operating in that kind of environment.

 

Correct I don't. I've never worked nor want to work in anything related to the airport industry. Doesn't stop me having an opinion or expressing surprise at the double standards that governments and airlines impose when trying to make out they are concerned for passenger safety when all they are really doing is watching their profit margins and keeping their fingers crossed that each aircraft that leaves the ground safely lands back on the ground.

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If that is true then why all the anti-terrorism rubbish that is rammed in our face at the airports when, after being made to leave a bottle of water in a bin bag, you can board a plane that then contains a threat just as dangerous, from tired pilots and directly from the airline itself that is trying to maintain safety and minimise risks, as any supposed terrorist/device being onboard.

Well I don't think airport security stuff really costs airlines much money while not overworking their pilots would. I guess that anti-terrorism stuff is a good business to some companies anyway...

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Graham, all operators have clearly defined minimum rest for flight crew. Fatigue, unlike being under the influence of alcohol is much harder to define. You can have minimum rest or longer, be stuck in a hotel somewhere with a group of people next door up all night having a stag do.

 

To give you an example of a possible scenario here, crew was down route, didnt get a good nights sleep in the hotel, turned up to the airport tired but completely capable of operating an aircraft, 6 hours into cruise after dinner and the PF who is supposed to be still awake closes his eyes and drifts off. At departure I am sure the crew wouldn't have thought they would both drift off and definitely wouldn't have felt the need to call in sick whilst downroute.

 

Airlines try to keep to crew flying up to the max legal limit, its a business pure and simple. I have full respect for the flight crew, yes they could have kept quiet, instead they brought it to the attention of management and the exact circumstances can be investigated to minimise this sort of thing happening again.


Rob Prest

 

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. I guess that anti-terrorism stuff is a good business to some companies anyway...

 

Without going OT....its one of the biggest cons of modern times along with green taxes (for substances so harmful to the environment that as long as you pay a lot of money you can keep using them....go figure).

 

Probably a discussion for another forum :rolleyes:

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Yup, as a society we are willing to spend vastly more money to prevent one death from an act of terrorism than to prevent a death from other causes. Far less money is being spent on fall prevention measures / research than on anti-terrorism for example, despite over 14,000 people dying as a result of falls in the US each year.

 

Without going OT....its one of the biggest cons of modern times along with green taxes (for substances so harmful to the environment that as long as you pay a lot of money you can keep using them....go figure).

 

Probably a discussion for another forum :rolleyes:

 

Hopefully not taking a political turn here, but the idea behind green taxes (in economic theory, if not in actual implementation) is not that they make the environmental harm go away, but that they offset externalities. Externalities being costs to third parties not directly involved in a business transaction.

E.g. you buy a new car from a factory that uses toxic chemicals and dumps waste in a river. This creates costs for the people downstream of the factory, who have to build a new water purification plant. These people are not involved in the deal between you and the factory, but do incur costs. A green tax on the factory could be used to pay for the new water purification plant, thus offsetting the externalities incurred by the down-river people.

Note this is probably not the best way to solve this particular scenario, but I hope it is a clear example of the economic theory behind using (green) taxes to offset externalities. Whether green taxes are actually properly implemented this way in practise is of course another matter, and as you say a discussion for a different forum.

Green taxes (again in theory at least) can also be used to reduce the price advantage of using less environmentally friendly options, allowing more environmentally friendly alternatives to grow sufficiently for economies of scale to bring the price down.

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Yesterday, on BBC's Radio 5 LIve, a former UK Captain, revealed how both he and his co fell asleep flying on AP to Spain. When the presenter asked him had he not imperilled the passengers, he stated there was no danger as it was a freight flight. But he also went on to point out the ridiculous rotas airlines use, and how it was impossible to get to sleep at 8pm when the next door nighbours were having a summer's BBQ, and then to be ready for a 3am flight; he also went on to make a point that as an additional safety feature, these days the FAs are intructed to make calls to the Flight Deck just to ensure all's well, but sometimes they are so tied-up trying to augment their salaries by making on-board sales targets that these check-calls do not necessarily get made.

 

A caller to the radio station later revealed these disclosures were making him feel uneasy as he faced a long-haul flight to Hong Kong!

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rofl...I'm sorry but the topic header made me laugh a little, even though this is no laughing matter. Unbelievable...


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As far as i am aware legislation is proposed on European level to further increase pilot duty times !!!???!!

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As far as i am aware legislation is proposed on European level to further increase pilot duty times !!!???!!

I forgot. That was one of the points that Captain raised on the radio as further endangering those sleep patterns.

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it was impossible to get to sleep at 8pm when the next door nighbours were having a summer's BBQ, and then to be ready for a 3am flight;

 

What is anyone supposed to do about that - ban BBQs adjacent to pilot's homes or cancel all night flights?

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