One thing I do think is very unfortunate is the number of civilian flight simmers who will not try a combat flight sim because they think it's all about nothing more than mindlessly blowing stuff up. I also think it's sad there are so many combat flight simmers who will not try a civilian type sim because they think it's too boring within nothing to blow up. If we could find a way to bring together the two groups I think we'd actually have a user base that could support meaningful future development of flight sims.

 

So what we need then is a mod to allow us to shoot down airliners in FSX! Might actually get me into VATSIM again...

 

Seriously though, many good points there.

 

No it didn't. Many users already had MS-DOS installed before they even knew about Flight Simulator.

 

 

You missed my point....When Microsoft bought FS from Sublogic they brought over Apple and Commodore customers. I was an Apple customer using Sublogic Flight Sim 2 and never owned MS-Dos....EVER

 

Same with all those Commodore customers. In order to get MSFS to work we had to trade in our Apple or Commodore computers for a PC, and buy MS-Dos to get that to work and MSFS on top of that. When Windows 3.1 came along a lot of us bought that too. Amazing to me you can't see that.  

 

 

 

Which products, and how many, were bought that wouldn't have been bought because of Flight simulator?

 

Products I bought because of Flight Sim would be

 

MS-Dos 5.0

MS-Dos 6.22,

Windows 3.1

Windows 95

Windows 98

Windows ME

Windows XP

Windows Vista

Windows 7

MS Office 3.0

MS Office 4.0

MS Office 95

MS Office 97

MS Office 2000

 

Other items like

 

MS Space Simulator

MS Train Simulator

MS Golf

MS Money

MS Publisher

 

(and a few others I forget now)

 

All versions of MSFS as well as every addon MS used to produce as well as Mallard and BAO addons.

 

 

If it wasn't for MSFS I would have gone the Macintosh route back when that came out but didn't because it didn't have Flight Simulator (other then a patched over copy of Release 2). Now I am just going back to Apple again because MSFS is gone.

 

Since Microsoft has abandoned flight sim I have not purchased anything more from Microsoft, Windows 7 has been my very last purchase from them. I didn't purchase MS Flight as I beta tested it and didn't like the direction.

 

I now have 4 Apple machines in my house and that one FSX machine with Windows 7 and that one is only used for FSX. Apple is now used for everything else.

As has been said a couple of times already in this thread - Joshua Howard didn't help kill FSX. It was well and truly dead long before he arrived on the scene.

 

I think a lot of you guys are looking at the "death" of MSFS in isolation from the rest of the flight sim genre. I remember back in the early 90's just about every major PC game publisher had a heavyweight flight sim in its catalogue. We had MSFS, Sierra Pro Pilot, TRI Fly!, Flight Unlimited, Jane's Combat Simulations (Longbow, F-15, F/A-18, WW2 Fighters), Falcon 4, European Air War, IL-2, Rowan's Flying Corps, MiG Alley and Battle of Britain, EF2000, F-22 ADF and TAW, DiD's Apache Longbow, Hind and F-16, the Graphsim F-18 sims, MSCFS, B-17 The Mighty Eighth, the Flanker series (still with us in the form of DCS). All of these came out in a 5 year period from 1995 through to 2000 (2001 in the case of IL-2). They were showcases both for PC technology and video gaming in general. Then all of a sudden, as if out of the blue, they were gone. With the exception of Ubisoft all the big publishers pulled out of the genre almost overnight.

 

Spiralling development costs, increasing complexity demanded from an increasingly small customer base and the advent of the Playstation era all conspired to put an end to flight sims funded and published by the big names. Looking back nearly a decade and a half later I think it's pretty extraordinary that MSFS managed to weather the storm and last as long as it did.

 

If you look now at the combat flight sim genre you can see it's gone through something of a transformation. The big publishers have now left and the current projects are all run by smaller specialist outfits. They are all digital distribution only, and a few of them (e.g. DCS) are a spin-off from military training platforms. There's a smattering of community developed projects based on source code obtained by enthusiasts (sometimes legally, sometimes not so). I think the civilian flight sim genre is finally being forced to make a move to that model. What I'm especially interested to see is if the current user base can support in the long term the number of payware developers/publishers out there at the moment.

 

One thing I do think is very unfortunate is the number of civilian flight simmers who will not try a combat flight sim because they think it's all about nothing more than mindlessly blowing stuff up. I also think it's sad there are so many combat flight simmers who will not try a civilian type sim because they think it's too boring within nothing to blow up. If we could find a way to bring together the two groups I think we'd actually have a user base that could support meaningful future development of flight sims.

I love combat sims infact I still fly Il2 multiplayer as do a lot of other folks via a program called hyperlobby somtimes we have 64 people flying at one server its truly an amazing experiance that everyone should try since you can pick il2 1946 on GoG for $9.99

You missed my point....When Microsoft bought FS from Sublogic they brought over Apple and Commodore

Microsoft didn't buy FS from subLOGIC. Microsoft acquired a licence in the early 1980's and released its Flight Simulator 1.0 in 1982.

 

But, subLOGIC continued to develop its flight simulator, releasing versions for Amiga, Apple II, Atari ST, Commodore 64, Atari 8-bit, and TRS-80 until 1986. Incidentally, Microsoft even released a version for the Macintosh in 1986.

 

Bruce Artwick, who founded subLOGIC, left and setup BAO to continue his work on subsequent Microsoft releases, beginning with Flight Simulator 3.0 in 1988.

 

Users had the opportunity to use Flight Simulator on a range of pcs for a number of years even after Microsoft became involved. I'd suggest the real reason for users switching to Windows pcs was that they, rightly, saw no future in Amiga, Atari, Commodore, or TRS-80 pcs, and felt that Microsoft was offering a better product.

 

Now I am just going back to Apple again because MSFS is gone.

I have a similar list of Microsft software even though for many years I didn't have Flight Simulator.

 

Although some will abandon Windows because Microsoft is no longer developing FS, I'd suggest they are so few in number as to be insignificant in the wider picture.

Microsoft didn't buy FS from subLOGIC. Microsoft acquired a licence in the early 1980's and released its Flight Simulator 1.0 in 1982.

 

However you want to spell out the detail doesn't matter to me. It happened. I say bought because I couldn't care less about the details to be honest. It was a deal between one man and a large corporation, good for him

 

 

 

But, subLOGIC continued to develop its flight simulator, releasing versions for Amiga, Apple II, Atari ST, Commodore 64, Atari 8-bit, and TRS-80 until 1986. Incidentally, Microsoft even released a version for the Macintosh in 1986.

 

Yes and it was basically Sublogic's release 2 with some improvements but not much more then that....I remember where that went.

 

The Macintosh version wasn't attractive for flight siming due to the price of a Mac, the size of the screen and limitation in controllers available for the Mac. All they did was take Sublogics release 2 and refined it a little and released it for the Mac....I remember it well actually because my brother did get a Mac and I tried it on that machine. Screen was too small really and an awkward setup for Flight Simming, But the Mac was the better machine in other areas.

 

 

Bruce Artwick, who founded subLOGIC, left and setup BAO to continue his work on subsequent Microsoft releases, beginning with Flight Simulator 3.0 in 1988.

 

 

 

And this was around the time I traded in my Apple IIc for an 80386 PC, Something I never would have done but Release 4 actually set the standard for what we see today with addons that Bruce continued to release through originally MS, them BAO and Mallard. Other third party were to follow.

 

Point is I was never really a PC guy and if it wasn't for MSFS I wouldn't have gone down that road in the first place. Many hard core Flight Simmers made the transition over to the PC for the same reason I did....The PC won us over due to availability of Flight Sim software and the ability to customize our hardware.

 

 

 

Although some will abandon Windows because Microsoft is no longer developing FS, I'd suggest they are so few in number as to be insignificant in the wider picture.

 

People are abandoning MS for many many reasons, the current state of that Company is proof of that and Apple is the highest valued company on the planet today.

 

MS has turned their back on loyal customers over the past few years in many ways, from abandoning FSX, Train Sim, MS Games, stringent rules on XBox to releases a very unpopular version of Windows 8. 

 

Whoever becomes CEO has a lot of work to do to rebuild market share. The Home is the biggest loss for them because the reason why Apple is so big today is because of the home and mobile users. MS is getting by on its business customers and that is not enough.

However you want to spell out the detail doesn't matter to me

 

The fact remains that FS was available on a range of different platforms in the 1980s. Perhaps the others didn't survive because they weren't vvery suitable. As you said  "The Macintosh version wasn't attractive for flight siming due to the price of a Mac, the size of the screen and limitation in controllers available for the Mac."

 

Apple is the highest valued company on the planet today.

 

True, but Apple's market capitalisation has changed from $573.67B on 19 October 2012 to $462.33B now. That's a fall of 19%.

 

Microsoft's capitalisation has changed from $241.05B to $292.29B over the same period. That's an increase of 21%.

 

Who has a lot of work to do?

True, but Apple's market capitalisation has changed from $573.67B on 19 October 2012 to $462.33B now. That's a fall of 19%.

 

Microsoft's capitalisation has changed from $241.05B to $292.29B over the same period. That's an increase of 21%.

 

Who has a lot of work to do?

 

 

Of course things will change. I always felt with Steve Jobs not being around anymore will have some effect on Apple's innovation, but I do like Jonathon Ive so as long as he keeps at it, hopefully we continue to see amazing things out of them.

 

Microsoft future could go in any direction. Maybe they could continue the turn around, or perhaps the gains are more creative accounting, and they could fall like Blackberry did. One thing true about Technology is no one ever stays on top....Example. IBM, Hewlett Packard, Atari, Apple (Top to Bottom to Top again for now) and the list goes on and on.

 

The one that missed the boat big time is Sony...A company that has Sony Music and entertainmant, Sony Walkman, Sony Phones, Sony Playstation Portable....Everything was there to converge that technology and Apple beat them to it. That is the biggest failure in the past 10 years in my POV.

 

Nothing is certain for any Tech company, MS is just one that had a very good run for a while there. Nobody on here or otherwise could predict their future.

 

I am looking forward to what Steam come up with in a Steam Box and SteamOS....Another potential game changer.

 

 

Whoever becomes CEO has a lot of work to do to rebuild market share.

 

Yes Sir! Right On!!!

quote name='ytzpilot' timestamp='1382293691' post='2831812']
Whoever becomes CEO has a lot of work to do to rebuild market share.

 

Yes Sir! Right On!!!

Yep, Microsoft has been victim of their own strategy the last decade. They never wanted to be a trend setter and invent new tech, rather they followed the trends and used their market power to cash in on other companies hard work. Always too late to the party, ridiculing consoles, smartphones and tablets. The FS-saga is just one more nail in their coffin. Microsoft seems unable to understand that unless they can contribute to create varied and attractive content for the PC, their most important vehicle - the desktop computer -  is going to become a picture in a history book.

It is debatable whether the PC and desktop computer will be the most important  vehicle in the future.

 

There are estimates that in  2013 shipments will be

 

Desktops 24.8%

Laptops 33.3%

Tablets 41.9%

 

but the forecast is that tablet sales in the 3rd quarter will actual exceed those of desktops and laptops combined.

 

But 2017  it's forecast that shipments will be: 

 

Desktops 16.9%

Laptops 27,1%

Tablets 56%

 

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/384172/tablet-sales-to-overtake-pcs-this-quarte

.

 

 

It is debatable whether the PC and desktop computer will be the most important  vehicle in the future.

 

I think as we move forward the PC will always be preferred machine to the hobbyist and hard core gamers. The masses have moved away in high numbers and I don't see them coming back.

 

Kind of like the way it was back in the 1970's and 1980's when the Computer was a hobbyist machine and the general public had very little interest in it. I think their was a boom trend in the 1990's towards the PC because of the internet and a few other things, and now anyone can access the internet on a phone or tablet they don't see a need for a PC anymore.

 

I will always have at least one desktop in my house but also have 3 laptops, 2 tablets and 2 iPhones at the moment, so that makes the PC the minority in my household. Most of my neighbours won't even have a PC as they are more likely to have laptop, a tablet and/or a smartphone instead.

It was well and truly dead long before he arrived on the scene.

 

How could it be both "well" and "truely dead" at the same time?

It is debatable whether the PC and desktop computer will be the most important  vehicle in the future.

 

There are estimates that in  2013 shipments will be

 

Desktops 24.8%

Laptops 33.3%

Tablets 41.9%

 

but the forecast is that tablet sales in the 3rd quarter will actual exceed those of desktops and laptops combined.

 

But 2017  it's forecast that shipments will be: 

 

Desktops 16.9%

Laptops 27,1%

Tablets 56%

 

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/384172/tablet-sales-to-overtake-pcs-this-quarte

.

 

Those stats may or may not be accurate, but I believe the picture is "cropped".  I just added a tablet for me, and a tablet for my wife.  My last PC purchase was now 26 months ago.  The tablets may replace our laptops, but will not replace the desktop on which I run FSX, and which I use as my primary email, personal finance, and investment tool.  I can perform the email and other mentioned managements significantly faster with the desktop than with the tablet. Not even a fair competition.  I anticipate replacing my current desktop with a more powerful unit in about a year, at age three.  I expect the new tablet to have a life of about two years before it will be replaced because of improvements in technology.  So three years for my desktop/aviation machine, and two years for my tablets.  And the tablets are a 2:1 ratio compared to the desktop as we have one for me and one for my wife.  We are empty nesters.  Quite a percentage of other families have kids so the effect multiplies. Therein lies the stats IMHO.

 

I believe the increase in tablet share of current sales is more due to users adding tablets to their assets, possibly replacing laptops, but is that, rather than replacing desktop PC's with tablets,  We used laptops for mobility when we needed it and will use tablets the same way.

 

Even if the projections prove to be accurate, 16.9% of the market is still a huge number in terms of volume, so at age 65 I expect I will be able to source a flight sim capable desktop until perhaps my age overwhelms my skills.

You missed my point....When Microsoft bought FS from Sublogic they brought over Apple and Commodore customers. I was an Apple customer using Sublogic Flight Sim 2 and never owned MS-Dos....EVER

 

Same with all those Commodore customers. In order to get MSFS to work we had to trade in our Apple or Commodore computers for a PC, and buy MS-Dos to get that to work and MSFS on top of that. When Windows 3.1 came along a lot of us bought that too. Amazing to me you can't see that.

 

.

True and remembering a famous Monty Phython saying from years gone by .... "And if you try telling the kids today that .... they won't believe you"!!

 

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk

 

 

It is debatable whether the PC and desktop computer will be the most important  vehicle in the future.

 

There are estimates that in  2013 shipments will be

 

Desktops 24.8%

Laptops 33.3%

Tablets 41.9%

 

but the forecast is that tablet sales in the 3rd quarter will actual exceed those of desktops and laptops combined.

 

But 2017  it's forecast that shipments will be: 

 

Desktops 16.9%

Laptops 27,1%

Tablets 56%

 

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/384172/tablet-sales-to-overtake-pcs-this-quarte

.

 

My comment was not what is the current and future platform, but rather what has been Microsofts core platform for three decades. They have clearly shown that they are unable to make good products for tablets and smartphones, so they should stick to what they know and contribute to keeping that platform alive.

 

Even though tablet sales are high at the moment, they will enver replace the PC for content creation. Using a tablet for Photoshop, Excel and Word etc. is stil cumbersome with a tablet. We also know that a powerful PC can outperform any console and tablet. The trick is to create exclusive content for the PC. I know a handful of people who bought a Playstation just to play GTA V. This is the kinds of products Microsoft need to develop for the PC.

Desktops as percentage of sales may shrink, but sales numbers should remajn steady for desktops and take off for tablets. Own ipod touch that my laptop for now. Desktop and ipod touch is my future as fullsize laptops are waste of money compared to desktop. In addition easier to upgrafe a desktop and part it out. Get

more performance in desktop per 100 dollar spent. Desktop is like V8 buick engine block from the 1950s swap parts in and out. Laptop breaks means replacement every time. ipod touch get 4th gen used for $110 on ebay. Get i5 2500k used in decent condition $600 with 660 gtx. New electronics resembkes more like new car buying. Buy 3 year old low mile car for up to 40% cheaper than same look make model. Ipod touch my tablet now use it everwhere.