The Malady that is Payware Support

[DAL1850 51]

Scott,

 

We disagree on the breadth of the problem (I do think the problem has worsened - hence the post), but you do raise good points. Respect and decency is a two-way street and unfortunately, this written medium, makes it entirely too easily for some to forget they're interacting with people instead of a database. In the days where freeware was prevalent, little was expected. If something didn't work the way you wanted or didn't measure up to your expectations, you fixed it yourself and in some cases, gave it back to the community. Works were offered freely. Support was offered freely or, as was usually the case, not at all. In an age where $80, $90, $100 add-ons are now increasingly the norm, development cycles run years, and products are over-hyped, expectations and ego are increasingly entangled.

 

It has to begin with civility. It does need to start with the vendor. Part of the responsibility that comes with charging people money for merchandise is dealing with customers who are frustrated when something isn't working or measuring up to expectation - regardless of who is at fault or where the problem lay. It's called customer service - and it is a service (not a privilege) that not everyone is qualified to give - and it goes with the territory of retailing.

 

J

 

LOL@soyouregoingtoprison.com I'll buy that for a dollar.

[tttocs 301]

It has to begin with civility. It does need to start with the vendor. Part of the responsibility that comes with charging people money for merchandise is dealing with customers who are frustrated when something isn't working or measuring up to expectation - regardless of who is at fault or where the problem lay. It's called customer service - and it is a service (not a privilege) that not everyone is qualified to give - and it goes with the territory of retailing.

 

On the first we agree.  On the second, we dramatically depart.  I know that I can only effect change from one side.  Mine.  As long as someone thinks it's primarily the other's responsibility to be civil, things inevitably fall apart.  Us vs them.  Financial transactions don't change the need for both parties to fundamentally respect each other as people - they're simply a value exchange - a barter if you will.  I give you something, you give me something back that we agree is of equal value.

 

Good business practice suggests that anyone in business treat their customers well, of course, and I agree that some developers aren't the most skilled at this, though my personal experiences have been mostly positive.

 

In any case, thanks for keeping this conversation civil.  I do understand where you're coming from, even if we don't entirely agree on some of the issues involved.

 

Scott

[mgh 89]

 

 

Find someone in the community to front the product for free.

 

Do you expect people to work for free on payware  so you don't have to pay the full price?

[DAL1850 51]

Do you expect people to work for free on payware so you don't have to pay the full price?

Don't be ridiculous. I said nothing of the sort.

 

My point was in response to the argument that the market is perhaps too niche or too expensive to pay someone to provide good support. If a payware company can't be bothered to provide (good) product support for their customers, there are many in the community who are both technically capable and willing to provide it and/or forum moderation. Some do so willingly and are quite good at it. Like beta testers, most never see a dime or even a note of appreciation - most do it out of support, to be an early adopter of new technology, and for love of the hobby or all three. I would rather have no support and rely upon such fellow hobbiests than to have bad/hostile engagements from payware developers who feel the questions from their customers are beneath their pay grade.

[tttocs 301]

 

 

Do you expect people to work for free on payware so you don't have to pay the full price?

 

Actually Gerry, there are payware products that are soley supported by the community and people who are basically volunteers.  And yes, that does help keep prices down, though I know it probably doesn't feel that way to people as prices rise - that rise being largely due to the relatively small size of the market and OUR increasing demand for raising the bar, leading to longer development cycles.

 

Scott

[ClearedtoLand 149]

I broadly agree with the sentiments expressed in the opening post. However, I also sympathize with some of the dilemmas faced by the developers when dealing with their customers. I think the main point that I would emphasize is that, as a customer, you are entitled to be treated with respect, even if that comes in the form of, This issue has been addressed in another thread, please find the link here www.forum.wetalkedaboutthisstuffhere.net/don't-click-on-this-link-it's-only-an-example. I also think that too often posts are not read to be dealt with individually, but are scanned to see which category of problem it appears to fall under in the interest of expedience. This I don't view as unreasonable given time and personnel constraints. However, as a result of this, a request that may require a closer look is dismissed because it has been taken to fall into a particular category of post, e.g. this guy hasn't read the manual because [insert assumed reason here].

 

I also think that too often, people are viewed first and foremost as sim-pilots, a manual represents a type rating that any real pilot can cover in an hour and grasp fully, and so the sim-pilot is expected to do at least that much. I am a sim-pilot, we all are, but first and foremost, I run a restaurant. Simming is for fun, or when I want to forget about a particularly difficult customer whom I would have liked to place 30 ft behind my 777 portside engine shortly before pushing it to take off power. We all get frustrated by our customers sometimes. When you start looking at your customers as people who actually have more important priorities in their lives than reading a manual, no matter how much care and attention went into it (and yes, we are, I think, all greatly appreciative of the manuals), perhaps it no longer seems the unforgivable crime that we are sometimes made to feel like we have committed when we haven't read the entire manual. Time constraints from real life mean that, where we can, we have to slog through the manuals at times when we actually have time, but are we in the meantime supposed to defer enjoying the product until we have had time to study the manuals? That would not be reasonable to expect.

 

Reference has been made to seeing things from both ends, I agree. I am happy to accept that many developers can't finance people to handle customer support, I have patience with that and find it, if not totally ideal, at the very least, reasonable. I also find it quite reasonable, that as a restaurant owner, vendors should show understanding of the fact that their manual is not my priority, my business is. And I do not want to be treated as if it has to be. I do not require vendors to specialize in customer service before engaging with the public, nor should they expect me, or any of us, to specialize in the content of the manuals before trying out their planes. And if we ask a question about it, bear in mind that we are first and foremost something else, before we are a sim-pilot, and that something else is not necessarily a lazy slob.

 

That said, there are people on here who are not vendors and are in no way affiliated with any vendor, who behave as if the issuing of a manual alongside the release of a plane creates a binding contract between vendor and customer, enshrined in and enforceable by law, whereby the customer shall agree to study meticulously the manual in its entirety immediately upon purchase. For one reason or another, these people feel themselves justified to heap scorn and condescension on anyone whose posts or questions suggests that they have failed to obey the aforementioned law. Such people contribute nothing, but I fear, and this is due to the human propensity for emulating the behavior of personal heroes or other authority figures, that they feel they are justified to behave in this manner because the expectation is, once a manual is issued, the law mandates it to be mastered. I can accept a vendor telling me to read the manual, I cannot accept someone else doing so upon pain of their wrath. And I think we need to differentiate between vendors exhibiting this type of behavior, and other forum members who do. I think that in more cases than not, it is not actually vendors who are responsible for most of the unpleasant exchanges, but forum members behaving as if they are the vendor in question.

 

From my perspective, there is a very simple question, if you go to a restaurant and ask what the soup/fish of the day is, and the waiter retorts, I am so sick of people asking this question day in and day out, it's up there on the wall, read it ... are you going to recommend that restaurant to a friend?

[HiFlyer 9,343]

I vote with my wallet.

[simmerhead 885]

I vote with my wallet.

Me too! And you freeware heroes, better get that pay pal donation button up and running, because that is where I send my money!

[edetroit 933]

Superb rant DAL1850!

[Tim_Capps 474]

Captain Sim is an example where a knowledgeable cadre of fans works with the dev to provide excellent support. If Mark or Lou or one of a few others can't help, there's probably no help to be had. They even have official status. They might get a freebie for their efforts or they might not;. I don't know. One advantage is that these are people who are genuinely enthused about the products and happy to help newcomers. Captain Sim does still maintain their knowledge base and ticket system, but the forum is the best bet. (That was why their policy of barring new members from starting topics was unfortunate. True, they did have a catch-all "ask your questions here" topic, but I think anyone who buys a product should be able to post in the support forum!)

 

Quality Wings is another forum that I have found to be helpful and friendly. I have never had any problems with Aerosoft, either, and they answer their email quickly, too. Coolsky was good, too, unless something has changed. Heck, once you negotiated the cumbersome registration process, even Ariane's double-secret forum wasn't bad, surprisingly enough, except for the occasional flat-out... er... exaggeration? ("Pilots will receive mission-critical enhancements to planning and safety with the upcoming NavTech Super Special, to be released any moment now." -- that was, what, three years ago? It's still "nearly ready.")

 

Anyway those (with the exception of Ariane) are the devs currently on my "nice" list. (And just because somebody isn't mentioned might be because I don't have their product.)

[Q_flyer 766]

Good rant.   I Agree with some perspectives, and others less so.

 

What I find interesting is that if we canvassed on who these businesses are that provide the dire support, I bet we'd see a wide spread! .. By that I do not mean that all FS businesses provide poor support, what I mean is that we all judge by different values and standards; 

 

One man's Orbx is another man's Captain Sim.   (You can apportion the halos and devil's fork to whichever as you see fit :wink:).

 

Some people view support as poor because of the communication style ("how rude" etc), whereas others really value a no-nonsense, direct approach;  that's how they want to be given it.

 

But of course there are trends; there are patterns.   There are probably some developers where we'd pretty much all agree that their support is appalling or non-existant.

 

...but I bet we'd disagree on most.

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

One challenge with providing support via Forum or Email is that you don't get the opportunity to make that connection with your customer in the same way as you would in person. 

 

Talking in person and body language is the best form of communication, when you communicate via Forums or Email then a tremendous amount of that message you are trying to get out to your customer is lost.  This is a challenge I recognize and how things can get lost in translation many times.

[dmz 0]

Superb stuff,hits the spot on so many levels.You sir are an obvious genius and I commend this post..a copy of which should be forwarded henceforth to all the payware vendors out there.some of whom think we should bow and grovel and accept issues with their software and don't you dare complain or we will ban you.We made it we sell it  suck it up or leave kinda guys take heed.

Brilliant.

Gary

[HiFlyer 9,343]

Probably my worst payware problems are with things I purchased only to have the vendor..... pretty much vanish, leaving a cold, dark forum and the volunteer support people holding the bag. I have also bumped into a vendor or two that made me muse idly that it must be cool to run a business that doesn't need customers.  :huh:

[simmerhead 885]

Although I've had to deal with mostly polite and helpful people, I think the real tragedy is the various futile copy protection and activation limits that comes bundled with the mostly overpriced addons out there. It really doesn't matter if the support folks are polite and helpful when it takes a week to install an addon because you have installed it one time too many.