Flying below 250kts while heavy

[clarkTX 2]

The departure is the EGET1B from rwy 03L and I'm sorry, it's not a hold at 5000' it's an altitude restriction of 5000' but 30 miles from the airport, so effectively a hold until I pass that waypoint.

 

Good news!  You're reading the chart wrong.  That's not what that circular graphic means (it's MSA).  You can go look that up later.  For now, know that you are cleared to climb to cruise altitude as soon as you would like.  

[FLEX1978 373]

Good news!  You're reading the chart wrong.  That's not what that circular graphic means.  You can go look that up later.  For now, know that you are cleared to climb to cruise altitude as soon as you would like.  

I guess he's looking at the MSA north of the field and misunderstanding what it is

[clarkTX 2]

 

 

No approval is necessary to go above 250kts if your clean minimum airspeed is higher

 

Your clean min airspeed is not higher than 250kts in the MD11 in these conditions.  Vcl is an "optimum speed" not the min safe speed.  Big difference!  Go read the Md11 docs and learn how to read the yellow and red bars on the speed tape.  It's good info.

[Fatback 84]

Good news!  You're reading the chart wrong.

 

I'm using Aivlasoft EFB and it shows an altitude restriction of 5000 ft at EGETA, i.e. it shows 5000 with a solid line over and under it. But looking at the notes in the actual chart it says to maintain 5000' until instructed by ATC, so maybe Aivlasoft interpreted that as a restriction. In any case, the question still holds as there are any number of departures that restrict a full climbout. 

[clarkTX 2]

Gotcha.  You may have more recent charts than what I found online.  In that case, hold at 5000'/240kts as necessary.

[FLEX1978 373]

I'm using Aivlasoft EFB and it shows an altitude restriction of 5000 ft at EGETA, i.e. it shows 5000 with a solid line over and under it. But looking at the notes in the actual chart it says to maintain 5000' until instructed by ATC, so maybe Aivlasoft interpreted that as a hold. In any case, the question still holds as there are any number of departures that restrict a full climbout. 

Just pulled up the SID Correct, it does actually hold you at 5000 until EGATA. I really hope your VA doesn't force you to fly the entire SID

 

ATC (real world & online) will definitely climb you earlier unless they have no choice. A good example is the Dover SID out of Heathrow, if you flew the entire SID you would be stuck at 5000 all the way from London to Dover, never in 20 years of flying as a passenger or jumpseating have I seen the aircraft get held that long.

 

You seem pretty clued up, so I'm slightly confused as to why you are choosing to fly so rigidly.

 

Regards

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Can you please provide the FAR PART that you are referring to? Because that I know of acft are designed with the 250kts below 10K in mind. No matter how heavy. Only the Administrator can clear an acft to go faster than 250kts below 10K, ATC can't.

 

FAR 91.117d

 

Aircraft are not designed to the 250/10 "rule."  Aircraft are designed for a specific mission or task.  That's part of the reason 91.117d exists.

 

The FMC software is then added in to attempt to meet the 250/10 "rule" as best as possible, but it will automatically step the speed above 250 if necessary.  That's why you'll see it automatically set the restriction below 10 to minimum clean.

 

You're correct that only the Administrator can clear aircraft to operate above 250 under 10, but you need to read the whole part, a through d.  Too many simmers only read the base text, or maybe a.  The important one, of course, is part d.

 

To grey the matter further, all of that is circumvented (to a certain degree) by the approved company OpSpec (though that would arguably be an Administrator exemption under 91.117a).

[clarkTX 2]

My MD11 cares not for your 250/10 rule.  She is a wild thing!

[dmncnpilot 39]

FAR 91.117d

 

Aircraft are not designed to the 250/10 "rule."  Aircraft are designed for a specific mission or task.  That's part of the reason 91.117d exists.

 

The FMC software is then added in to attempt to meet the 250/10 "rule" as best as possible, but it will automatically step the speed above 250 if necessary.  That's why you'll see it automatically set the restriction below 10 to minimum clean.

 

You're correct that only the Administrator can clear aircraft to operate above 250 under 10, but you need to read the whole part, a through d.  Too many simmers only read the base text, or maybe a.  The important one, of course, is part d.

 

To grey the matter further, all of that is circumvented (to a certain degree) by the approved company OpSpec (though that would arguably be an Administrator exemption under 91.117a).

 

I agree and thanks for clearing that up, it's been so freaking long since I opened up the FAR/AIM that I completely forgot about part d Maybe this is a clear indication that I need to, lol.

 

However let me suggest one thing. If you ever have to exceed the 250KTS below 10k you better make sure you let ATC know on every single freq. that you contact. It's a very easy way to get violated by the FAA or like I like to call them "Fellas Against Aviators " the same goes to dep or app airports underlying class B airspace. If you must go faster than 200kts because of min safe speed make sure you announce it. ATC will most likely make a note of it and you might get a call from the "fellas", but you are covered, or you can avoid all that mess and just comply with the speed restriction by climbing dirty. Your call.

 

About an OpSpec it wouldn't even be an argument, the "fellas" approve those so...

[FLEX1978 373]

We had a lengthy discussion about this a little while back, even had input from an ex DC10 driver that says he never had to request or inform ATC that the minimum clean speed was above 250knots (pretty sure he is American)

 

I know for sure in the UK and Middle East you don't have to tell them your minimum clean speed, they are used to traffic flow and know what to expect.

 

Speaking to an ex 744 skipper who is now on the 777 and flys out of LA/Houston & Chicargo back to base- He said 9 out of 10 times everything is fine, but you may get one new guy who does everything by the book, you explain your clean speed and they leave you to continue. It's all about common sense.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

However let me suggest one thing. If you ever have to exceed the 250KTS below 10k you better make sure you let ATC know on every single freq. that you contact. It's a very easy way to get violated by the FAA or like I like to call them "Fellas Against Aviators " the same goes to dep or app airports underlying class B airspace. If you must go faster than 200kts because of min safe speed make sure you announce it. ATC will most likely make a note of it and you might get a call from the "fellas", but you are covered, or you can avoid all that mess and just comply with the speed restriction by climbing dirty. Your call.

 

About an OpSpec it wouldn't even be an argument, the "fellas" approve those so...

You're welcome. Common misunderstanding.

 

Just to clear it up further, though, reporting is *not* required in the United States. I should know the section by heart from these threads and my work with the FAA and controllers, but off the top of my head, it's JO 7110.65 5-7-2 Note. It basically says all pilots are to comply with 91.117 without reporting (with an exception, but not in regards to the topic at hand).

 

Imagine MEM in the FDX push if everyone had to report. It would be a mess.

 

Not required (another common misunderstanding).

[dmncnpilot 39]

You're welcome. Common misunderstanding.

 

Just to clear it up further, though, reporting is *not* required in the United States. I should know the section by heart from these threads and my work with the FAA and controllers, but off the top of my head, it's JO 7110.65 5-7-2 Note. It basically says all pilots are to comply with 91.117 without reporting (with an exception, but not in regards to the topic at hand).

 

Imagine MEM in the FDX push if everyone had to report. It would be a mess.

 

Not required (another common misunderstanding).

 

 

Exactly, I should've been a bit more clear when I said "you better". I meant it in a way of no fuss later on. The way it was explained to me was that you can take the FAR literally and you'll be safe when it comes to the regs and the fellas. But sometimes the regs aren't very clear so that's when common sense comes into the equation, but if you go by the book and inform ATC, hey, we need to do this because of this you'll most likely be covered. Communication goes a very long way in this industry 

[scandinavian13 5,192]

But sometimes the regs aren't very clear so that's when common sense comes into the equation, but if you go by the book and inform ATC, hey, we need to do this because of this you'll most likely be covered. Communication goes a very long way in this industry 

 

Fair enough.  I'd honestly roll my eyes if someone reported it in a heavy because it's understood (ATC have seen your aircraft do it legally before).  There is a thing as too much when it comes to communication.  It would be like announcing to ATC that you're reducing speed to 250 knots as you descend below 10,000.  Why don't you do that?  The reg doesn't say you don't have to do that, so is that also something that pilots should do to avoid fuss later on?  Nope.  It's understood, and - just like I pointed out with Section 5-7-2 Note 1 - ATC expects that you'll comply without notification.

 

If a controller criticized you, all you need to do is refer them to their 7110.65 (5-7-2 Note 1), and that'll be the end of it.

 

I understand CYA, but there's a point at which it goes a little too far.  The only reason it feels like CYA is that most people don't fully understand the rule in the Flight Sim realm, or aren't familiar with US procedure.

 

 

 

 

For those interested about ammo for future debates, I made up a quick video as part of my SYSK series for reference any time this comes up:

 

(Give it a few minutes to finish processing if it isn't showing up properly.  Additionally, YouTube places a low def copy up online first while it processes it for HD.  If it's not HD, check back in 10-20 min and it should be there.)

[dmncnpilot 39]

I understand exactly what you're saying however it's a good idea to inform atc because of the flow of traffic and conflict/separation. I do not fly heavies, (unless you consider the B1900 or the EMB145 heavy, LOL) maybe one day but I have a few friends that do fly for Atlas on the 747-400 and -800 and for them flying above 250kts below 10knts is extremely rare. However it can be done.

[Vargveum 53]

To add more to the soup: In European airspace, the 250 kts below 10000 MSL limit is frequently cancelled by ATC when the aircraft is in controlled airspace -both on arrival and departure - with regards to traffic sequencing, or upon pilot request.