runway signs

[paula 0]

I have a question regarding the signs of the runway number

I saw ones a sign just before the runway 14-32

but the runway 32 was left and 14 was right.

mention this in the club and the answer was

sometimes they use the lowest one left and the highest one right.

is there a pilot who knows what is the exact rule? or is it different per region? like usa or europe.

[Captain Kevin 577]

Interesting. I would have thought they would go by whatever heading the runway was in relation to where the sign was positioned, so if you were at runway 14/32 and the start of runway 32 was to your left, the 32 designation would also be on the left.

 

Here's one from JFK.

 

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=40.633566,-73.782098&spn=0.001713,0.002642&t=h&z=19

 

On one end, you see it as 13R-31L, on the other side, it's written as 31L-13R.

[paula 0]

but that seems not everywhere the same some people says

[scott967 26]

In the US, per FAA AC 150/5340-1L "Surface Painted Runway Holding Position Signs" must be configured the same way as "Runway Holding Position Signs".  AC 150/5340-18F states the following:

 

"a.
Holding Position Sign for Taxiway/Runway Intersections. The inscription on a holding position sign at a taxiway/runway intersection is the runway number(s), such as "15-33", per Figure 2a. The runway numbers are separated by a dash, and their arrangement indicates the direction to the corresponding runway threshold. For example, "15-33" indicates that the threshold for runway "15" is to the left and the threshold for runway "33" is to the right. The sign at each runway end contains the inscription only for the takeoff runway, while all other signs contain both runway designation numbers. However, both runway designation numbers should be used on signs at runway ends where there is an operational need, such as where a taxiway crosses the runway at the runway end. Application examples for holding position signs are shown in Figure 3. Holding position signs are installed in-line with the holding position marking painted on the taxiway pavement. Arrows are used on holding position signs only if necessary to clarify the orientation of runways at the intersection of a taxiway with more than one runway (see Figure 4). Note that in Figure 4b, the holding position signs have both runway numbers to avoid confusion about the runway direction. In some geometrical configurations of runways and taxiways, it is necessary to install holding position signs on both sides of the taxiway."

 

 

ICAO is little less wordy.  Annex 14 Vol I just says:

 

"5.4.2.14  The inscription on a runway designation sign shall consist of the runway designations of the intersecting runway properly oriented with respect to the viewing position of the sign, except that a runway designation sign installed in the vicinity of a runway extremity may show the runway designation of the concerned runway extremity only."

 

scott s.

.

[Jeff H 63]

Scott beat me to it.  A good place to find info like this, as it pertains to US operations, is in the Aeronautical Information Manual which you can find here:

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/index.htm

 

Cheers.  :smile:

[paula 0]

Thanks I have to read a lot of info which I will do.

In the meantime I have this question:

If there is one runway in a quiet area and the runway numbers are not placed at the runway, is it

allowed to put before entering the runway a sign which shows the lowest number on the left and the highest on the right?

while the heading is the otherway ?

some people say that in the usa it is for 90% common.

[Jeff H 63]

Hi Paula,

I guess you could do it that way, but why would you want to?  In my experience, I've yet to see a runway sign that didn't adhere to the standard referred to in the AIM, but then there are thousands of airports in the US that I've not visited so I won't say it hasn't happened. The problem I envision is that to do it the way you suggest would have the potential to create confusion for pilots who may be unfamiliar with the airport.  In the real world, preventing runway incursion incidents is a pretty big thing so I would think the FAA and the NTSB would have an issue with non-standard signs.  Now this is flight sim, so you can do pretty much anything you want, but for the sake of authenticity, I wouldn't choose to do it that way.  Also, keep in mind that the runway signs are placed at the hold line and not necessarily always at the point where you physically enter the runway.  I hope this helps you out.

 

Cheers,

Jeff  :smile:

[paula 0]

Well I think Jeff that I causes a language problem from my site.

It is not what I suggested but people of a club has placed a sign before the runway which is adverse from the reality.

i.e 14 left and 32 right and the reality is 32-14.

But there explanation is that for 90% in the usa it is common to put the lowest one left.

I would like to know if that is really the rule for smaller area and smaller places

It is not a big deal but I would like to know if that is everywhere understood in the aviation.

[Jeff H 63]

No problem Paula.  :smile: One thing I love about AVSIM is that there are people here from all over the world.  We all do the best we can to get through the language barriers.  No worries.
Actually, I think the mistake might be mine in misunderstanding your question.  Which way the numbers are arranged depends on where you are in relationship to the runway, and the runway in use.  For example, let's say that you are taxiing to runway 14 on a taxiway that is to the right of the runway, meaning you have to make a right turn onto the runway.  In that case the signs at the hold short line are going to be shown from lowest to highest (14-32), until you get to Runway 19.  If it were rwy 19 then it would be highest to lowest (19-01). But, if you are on a taxiway to the left of the runway, meaning a left turn onto runway 14, then the numbers would be reversed (32-14).  Make sense?  The numbers are always arranged according to your position relative to the runway.  The order (lowest to highest or highest to lowest) isn't a factor .  Just imagine that the sign represents the runway itself.  if you lay it down on its' back and stretch it out for the length of the runway, the numbers would be just like the numbers painted on the runway surface.  I'm afraid I'm making this more confusing than it really is, but I'm just trying to make it clear.  I hope you can understand it more clearly now.  Please let me know if I can help you more.

Cheers.  :smile:

[paula 0]

ok it is clear now and in my example a plate just in a small airport with one runway , the plate sign should not be 14-32

if the heading is on the left side 320 and 140 right.

thanks

[TurboTomato 90]

Interesting. I would have thought they would go by whatever heading the runway was in relation to where the sign was positioned, so if you were at runway 14/32 and the start of runway 32 was to your left, the 32 designation would also be on the left.

 

Here's one from JFK.

 

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=40.633566,-73.782098&spn=0.001713,0.002642&t=h&z=19

 

On one end, you see it as 13R-31L, on the other side, it's written as 31L-13R.

 

Erm, they both say the same thing either side of the line (31L - 13R)  :huh:

[n4gix 1,700]

Erm, they both say the same thing either side of the line (31L - 13R)  :huh:

He meant to say on the other side of the runway, assuming that there is also an entry to the runway on the opposite side...

[meshman 109]

Erm, they both say the same thing either side of the line (31L - 13R)  :huh:

 

It's not a picture, it's a link to Google sat service. Go nudge the picture NE and look at what it reads on the other side of the runway.

[Captain Kevin 577]

Erm, they both say the same thing either side of the line (31L - 13R)  :huh:

He meant to say on the other side of the runway, assuming that there is also an entry to the runway on the opposite side...

It's not a picture, it's a link to Google sat service. Go nudge the picture NE and look at what it reads on the other side of the runway.

Yeah, I wasn't aware that the forum automatically changed my link to this format, as when I copied the link, it clearly showed the taxiway on both sides of the runway. Yes, you are correct that they both read 31L-13R on either side of the line, but that's because both markings are on the same taxiway on the same side of the runway. If you go across to the other side of the runway where the taxiway continues, it reads the reverse, 13R-31L.