I'd really like to buy those big B737, 777, 747, A320, A330 but any time I'm about to press the BUY button I hesitate and then give up.

 

What is the purpose to learn to fly a big plane with complex and detailed avionics if the world around me doesn't offer a liner friendly attitude that, for me, reflects into a plausible and user friendly ATC coupled with rich and believable AI.

 

I can cope without AI when flying GA at small airports, the beauty of the landscape and the immersion of the flight models make me forget, even better, they increase the appreciation of the silence around me, but sitting at large airports alone is a no go solution. Even worse flying IFR at 25000 after being forced to switch off the stupid controller. I've tried World Traffic but not a working solution at the moment, too many crashes and difficult settings spoil what otherwise would be a good traffic addon but I really feel the biggest effort should be made by LR to enhace the ATC atmosphere.

 

Instead, as a new XP user, I feel disappointed when I read "minor fixes to ATC and AI" for next 10.30 patch.

 

The answer for me is just that they only aim to offer a mature and working ATC environment in V11 to increase sales of the new version otherwise I cannot figure out how they can work to a new particle system and sit deaf to the dozains of people stating that with a decent ATC they would quit FSX.

 

Flying GA at low altitudes is for me just half of the cake, I wish I could taste every slice of this amazing flight sim and go press that buy button of the JAR A320 or Ramzzess777. And yes I know VATSIM and IVAO exist but my timetable and family condition are not compatible with online ATC. I know you can say FSX is only saved and enhaced by payware addons, that default ATC is quite dumb and stupid, all true, but exactly for that reason this should be a field where XPlane should excell, not disappoint.

 

In the end my advise is simply to focus on ATC/AI and only after its completion to think a new particle system, seasonal textures or better cloud performance. Those can wait for me, they are not crucial right now. I underline "for me", I know everybody has his own priority.

I will say that I wish they would have focused on more of the core of the Sim and left the fireworks for the very endgame when they have gotten bored after fixing ATC/AI/Clouds/Weather.

Agreed. IMHO these "problems" are linked to the history of X-Plane beeing more a VFR sim than an IFR sim. Airliners with a FMS etc. just arrived yesterday in terms of XP developement and from that a number of new "problems" arise.
The approach to AI is linked to detailed custom airport developement and here too, XP10 is a newborn. ATC again is completely new and very difficult to do right.

Due to the many limitations of XP10 I think that making it a plausible airliner sim will rather take years, not months. It's not about fixing, it's about complicated new code and resources and you need a strategy to get there.

 

Re XP11: Honestly I would love to spend another 70 $ for XP11 if that would speed up the developement process.

 

Heads up

Flo

Due to the many limitations of XP10 I think that making it a plausible airliner sim will rather take years, not months. It's not about fixing, it's about complicated new code and resources and you need a strategy to get there.

 

 

Yes, if you allocate time to make a new particle system instead of rewriting AI behaviour that would be the case. For me ATC is already present, AI aircrafts are already there, it's just a matter to make them work right hence fixing is the right verb. They said a couple of years ago that with ATC they put into the sim the iceberg top, a base over which to develop futher, but after two years I see little improvements and looks like a realistic ATC/Ai is not on their list while on the contrary everybody asks for that.

 

Indeed, if you want to make the perfect liner experience you need years, but what I'm looking for is just a working ATC and AI sytem to make believable the IFR environment. My feeling is that LR went for the hard way trying to simulate everything at top realism (look at AI aircraft and their right behaviour) but this can require years whenever a more "arcade" approach could at least render the IFR world usable.

 

Well I know you could say "you have FSX for that". The problem is once flown in XPlane I feel little urgency to go back to FSX <_<

It's hard to *not* have AI and ATC coming from FSX, I know.

However there are things out there which can enhance the ambience when tubeliner flying, even if they are just passive.

 

For example, I use an ATC chatter package called RealATC that I originally bought as an addon for an addon namely ProATC/X (FSX/P3D).

In that package there are hundreds of US chatter files and a cool tool bundled-in called Enviro!32 which plays them randomly (or not) for you in the background.

 

http://realatc.net/RealATC.htm

 

For the AI, I suggest using the built-in X-Plane AI functionality, and downloading a selection of low-poly AI traffic models from the Org,

e.g. those XPFW AI models (try searching on "XPFW pack" in the d/l section).

At least then you can have a few other airliners taxiing/taking off/landing whilst you go about your tubeliner business in XP.

Best used in scenery which has adequate parking spots to avoid the "plane-humping" that can sometimes happen when you spawn on a ramp position.

Okay far from perfect but better than nothing and it just adds a little seasoning to the mix.

 

Hope that helps!

Actually, for me flying a big realistic airliner successfully is an achievement that gives great satisfaction -- it starts with planning, all the calculations, cold & dark start (although many say this is not realistic, as real pilots get their aircraft already started), carrying out the flight and landing. This is more than enough to learn.

 

Sure, good ATC and AI traffic would be very nice, but the lack of it does certainly not spoil the fun of flying an airliner.

That is true; biggest immersion for me in flying tubeliners is a complete, accurate systems simulation (there seem to be couple highly thought-of airbuses around but some have default fms, no 3d cockpit etc.) only airbus i think comes close to the "full package" that you might find on fsx is jardesign, with good 3d cockpit, airbus fms (or MCDU if you want to be precise) and brilliant ground clutter for GPU, fueling and catering trucks and boarding etc. Sure there might be couple flaws in flight modeling, but the i look at the complete package for a simulation i like to fly.

 

I don't have AI in FSX either; only if I'm online i'd find it. When i taxi to the runway i'm not constantly thinking i'm missing something, but the operation itself keeps me occupied enough that I don't notice such things. Ofcourse AI and ATC would add to that experience, but when I want that i got online networks. In FSX i don't have ATC nor AI other than online networks, so to me i'm not missing anything. I feel all the simulated ATC and AI are so unrealistic that it wont cut it for me, so I go online.

 

But going online for ATC and AI wasn't the point though, rather that with good airplane and systems modeling and the extra that come with it, like I said I find JARdesign to be a good example of this, I don't need ai or atc to keep me immersed in the sim. Good, complete airplane simulation will do that for me.

I really enjoy, what I think is the most realistic looking scenery I've ever seen in a flight sim! Together with the perfect feel of addons like the FJS 727, the FF 777/757, the LES SAAB 340 and the fantastic Airbusses from Peter's Aircraft and QPAC, I am so immersed that I couldn't care less about AI or seasonal textures. I fly online on VATSIM when I have the time and when I want "real" ATC interaction. But even flying offline is so rewarding and joy bringing in XPX that it's hard for me to have fun in FSX at the moment, even though I have all the good stuff for it.

Without all the additions like GSX, FS2Crew etc., I concentrate more on flying the plane again. Flying complete SIDs and approaches by hand is a major part of the fun XPX is giving me.

One of the planes mentioned above, EFASS (or PFPX) and XPX is my favourite setup right now.

I am looking forward to the coming releases like the FJS B732 and the IXEG 737 classic!

Actually, for me

 

[...]

 

Sure, good ATC and AI traffic would be very nice, but the lack of it does certainly not spoil the fun of flying an airliner.

 

 

That is true; biggest immersion for me in flying tubeliners is a complete, accurate systems simulation

 

[...]

 

I don't have AI in FSX either

 

[...]

Good, complete airplane simulation will do that for me.

 

You both have very valid points and arguments and i neither (or just very rarely) use AI in FSX and ATC only with Radar Contact occasionally and hopefully - when time allows it - i will go flying online.

So for me personally speaking i also do not consider AI or ATC to be the most important features in need to be implemented into XPlane - but(!) - Desaix pointed out clearly

 

 

 

I underline "for me", I know everybody has his own priority.

 

 ... "for me"

 

And it certainly is fully okay to ask for a proper implementation of AI and ATC to be taken care of in XPlane.

Because even from a more objective (less personal) point of view it indeed would be one of the "core features", which, if done properly, would help XPlane a real lot to gain further attention within the flightsimming community and so eventually get more customers/users on board.

But sure:

This also goes out to weather, improved visuals ... and all that "wanted/needed features stuff for XPlane" which has been discussed thouroughly by now - as here for instance ...

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/430911-what-are-your-x-wishes-for-2014/%C2'>

 

... but which will hopefully all be taken care of in a real convincing manner by Laminar - either in 10.30 or XPlane 11 ... - but sure:

The sooner, the better.

But again, and as by now:

As AI and ATC certainly are very important features, it's fully okay to repeatingly ask for a proper implementation of them continuously!

They might not be of "that importance" for all of us equally, but the certainly are important for a convincing flightsim!

:smile:

 

And it certainly is fully okay to ask for a proper implementation of AI and ATC to be taken care of in XPlane.

Because even from a more objective (less personal) point of view it indeed would be one of the "core features", which, if done properly, would help XPlane a real lot to gain further attention within the flightsimming community and so eventually get more customers/users on board.

 

 

Exactly for that should be a priority. Unfortunately now online ATC is not an option for me, at least until last baby grows a bit  B), but reading forums the ATC/AI fault is one of the major, if not the major letdown of people who moved back to FSX or hesitate to move to XPlane for this weakness.

 

Now, if ATC and AI weren't implemented at all I'd say "forget them", just focus on eyecandy and effects to attract more people, but they're already there, what is missing is just to make them working properly.

Yesterday the weather was terrible around here. It was an exhausting day for me, and when I arrived home I wasn't even up to any sort of dinner ... I decided to make a flight with the two best airbuses presently available for each of thge sim platforms - FSX and X-plane10

 

The flight was a short range LPPR - LPPT with cruise at FL250

 

Weather was bad at Porto ( LPPR ) and even worse at Lisbon ( LPPT ) with gusting winds up to 34 knot, at around 30º left of the rw 21 centerline.

 

I used FSBuild to generate the flightplans for both the Aerosoft AXE and the QPAC A320.  I really prefer the final result of the flightplan generated for X-plane, but my

fsx navaids are far from being up to date, while the X-Plane databases are...

 

I first flew the flight in FSX. Used ASN ( latest internal beta ) and I am using FTX Global as a scenery enhancement.

 

No doubts about the great functionality of the AXE, with it's co-pilot cooperating with me, following a various checklists, all very very didactic! The 3d cockpit is also great!

 

The weather rendering was great, the night sky, illuminated by a realistic Moon ( nearing 1st quarter ) was great too, but the scenery isn't better than what I have for X-Plane 10, thx to SimHeaven

and the HD Mesh V2!

 

Where things start to differ is in the feel of "flying" the airbus - by far I prefer the X-plane 10 QPAC A320...

 

Then, approaching LPPT in AXE was great visually, with those great clouds rendered by ASN, but the turbulence and shear effects I had experienced even while crossing the river in my car

were far from being realistically scary in FSX. I managed to land without great difficulty, but this wasn't surely what it would have been like in RL...

 

Then I repeated the very same flight in X-plane 10. Weather aloft during cruise was not as good as in FSX + ASN, of course, because X-Plane 10 is using only METAR data, but as soon as

I started my approach phase, and the final... whow... I almost sweat trying to maintain the aircraft aligned with the ILS, and landing required good work, as I guess would have been the case IRL...

 

This difference, not already in the 3d cockpit ( not yet available for the QPAC A320 ) or the many simulated details and even a co-pilot that follows the checklists for you, but rather in the sensation

of being there, flying an Airbus under adverse weather conditions, is where X-Plane 10 is, IMO, way ahead of any experience you can have in FSX, even with the best add-ons!

 

I never use ATC, and I have the AI disabled in FSX because my rig wouldn't sustain it and still give me acceptable FPSs...

 

I like both sims a LOT, but when it comes to flying under bad weather scenarios, I prefer by far X-Plane 10!

Bad weather in XPX is really an amazing experience. Yesterday, I flew from EGKK to EDDL in the FF 757. The winds were gusting at around 30, and immediately after takeoff, I got thrown around quite heavily! The wing flex looked fantastic on the 757 and the handling of the plane still felt very responsive and realistic! When I came out of the clouds, the scenery looked so good, especially with the new cloud shadows and raleigh tweaks that were found and shared by 2 fellow simmers here. I necker took so many screenshots during flight! ;-)

...When I came out of the clouds, the scenery looked so good, especially with the new cloud shadows and raleigh tweaks that were found and shared by 2 fellow simmers here. I necker took so many screenshots during flight! ;-)

Hey Mik, care to share those settings?

I have the DataRefEditor and would be interested in trying them out.

 

Thx

Hey Mik, care to share those sceenshots? 

 

I understand what you mean and feel Jcomm, it's the same feeling I have in GA and no surprise it reflects into heavy tube as well. FSX is so predictable regarding flyght model that maybe I start to think that my needing of AI and ATC was caused by the relative easyness of flying a liner in that sim.

Yesterday I was landing at Portoroz (amazing scenery payware level and with photoscenery was amazing) and right before the runway I had a sudden liftover so real I have never experienced in 15 years of FSX flying. I was so used to linear trajectory in FSX that I said "wow".

I will downlaod the model you suggested and start exploring airbus world even without ATC and company around even though I stll think that landing third in a row and taxying to gate with departing aircraft on the parallel lane is something special. 

I'm not understanding this expectation of X-Plane to have properly modeled AI and ATC.  I'm seeing people criticize LR for it...but if they don't create it, would you go back to FSX's default AI and ATC?

Last time I checked, none of the MSFS titles have properly modeled AI and ATC as default and no one complained.  I still have Orbit Airlines firmly planted in my head since FS9.  No one can tell me the default AI and ATC in FSX was any good.  The first time I tried it, way back in 2006/07, I nearly fell off my chair laughing.  That's when I started using Vatsim.  

Give it time.  A program like Radar Contact and Ultimate Traffic is a definite money maker, and a developer will almost certainly take them on.