Wings of Power P-51Released

[Guest Dann]

After flying the Mustang a little more, I don't really think bleeding the speed down is a big issue; most of the fighters from that war were clean, and the Mustang especially so (between wing, fuselage, and radiator duct design).However, it seemed when I dropped the first notch of flap around 150 mph with the gear down, the nose took a dip. Not sure this is correct, since the first notch of flap was often used to create lift to tighten the turn radius in combat (typically called combat flaps, but that's a bit of a misnomer). However, I have to reserve judgement since apparently several Mustang pilots helped design the flight model.Dan

[Guest]

I can bleed speed to about 200mph. After that only dropping gear and flaps seems to bring it down further using the figures mentioned in the manual (which aren't that much use as they are for a B-17 except for the flap and gear speeds which are mentioned as 170mph...).Cutting throttle and prop rpm almost completely will indeed slow her down further, but that seems a bit weird to need to do?

[Guest CYYJ1968]

Problem solved, in my case anyway. Although my throttle (CH Pro Throttle USB) is calibrated correctly and shows a full range of motion in the CH Control Manager, when I pull the controller all the way back the in-game P-51 throttle still shows 22% open. When I pull the in-game throttle back to 1 or 2% using the mouse, I am able to keep the airspeed down. Now I just need to figure out why my throttle gets stuck at 22% ...edit: Turns out that if the sensitivity of the throttle axis is reduced in FS2004 you no longer get full throw for the throttle in-game.

[Guest Dann]

>Cutting throttle and prop rpm almost completely will indeed>slow her down further, but that seems a bit weird to need to>do?I don't think so...you're losing airspeed, but assuming nose level, if you have any power on, you won't lose it very fast. Considering how I keep hearing real-life Mooney and v-tail Bonanza pilots say how difficult it is getting their planes to slow down, I'm sure the Mustang is in the same class and then some, having an even cleaner airframe.However, for sim purposes, perhaps it is a little "too clean"?Dan

[Guest Dann]

Ah ha.

[Guest]

>>However, for sim purposes, perhaps it is a little "too>clean"?>Possibly, if the sim has less drag modelled as standard than reality does. Who knows, maybe there's a slight error in the viscosity of air in FS causing friction against an aircraft skin to be slightly lower than it is in real life.This would cause aircraft to experience a tad less drag at low altitude than the real thing would, thus causing them to slow down less easily.

[Scott - A2A 164]

This was posted on the Shockwave forums regarding drag:Any problems you are having bleeding off speed are going to be related to one of three things, and we are listing them here in the order that they would most likely be culprits: 1. Your approach is much too steep and you are not flying a proper pattern. 2. The aircraft is too heavy for a normal landing. 3. Your throttle is not properly calibrated. 4. All of the above is also possible. This aircraft flies exactly according to the actual P-51 manual and bleeds off speed precisely as it should. Throttle settings and airspeeds during approach are exactly what the manual calls for. There was one individual who indicated the aircraft would not fly at less than 250 mph! Clearly there is a throttle calibration problem there. Reading the checklist is a must. There are very specific instructions on how to set up for a landing, but we'll repeat them here. (These are practically verbatim from the P-51 manual, and your ** Mustang will fly exactly as these instructions specify). Remember that a proper approach is a three-degree glideslope at a rate of descent of ~500 fpm. Any faster descent rate than that means you have set up your approach wrong and you'll never get slowed down enough to make a proper landing unless you have a very long runway. Our development team not only flew in two separate P-51 aircraft as passengers, we interviewed many P-51 pilots, both civilian airshow jocks as well as two of the last surviving P-51 double-aces from WWII. We also flew countless approaches to confirm that the ** flight model was an exact match to the real aircraft. So if you are having problems, evaluate the three reasons indicated above, and follow the checklist. The P-51 is not a training airplane, it is one of the hottest piston fighters in the world, and it's unrealistic to expect to hop in it and be able to fly a beautifult textbook approach, whether you are a real-life pilot in a real P-51 or a sim pilot. As we've mentioned, most flight models out there have drastically high amounts of flap drag that are completely unrealistic, which has caused people to become used to "having the airbrakes slammed on" when the flaps are put down. This flight model is accurate and correct and will perform just as the manual indicates. Take your time and learn to fly the plane, make sure you're properly set up, and calibrate your controllers. The pilot of a real P-51 has a far more complex job than we sim pilots have, but we still need to check aircraft weight, fuel supply, and fly by the book. Landing Check tanks and select the fullest tank for landing. Put the fuel booster on normal. Check the mixture control and set to RICH. Set the prop to about 2700 RPM. Check the traffic pattern and obtain clearance to land. Slow down to a sensible speed before peeling off. Slow down to 170 mph before lowering your landing gear. When the landing gear comes down, the airplane gets quite nose-heavy. However, you can easily adjust the trim tabs to take care of this. Don't forget that the gear takes 10-15 seconds to go down. The normal speed in the traffic pattern with wheels down is 150 mph IAS. Do not lower full flaps before 165 mph IAS. Remember, it takes 15 seconds to go from the full up position to the full down position. Allow plenty of time for this operation to make sure your flaps are down when you need them. After your flaps are down and you roll out of the turn onto the landing (approach) leg, your speed should be about 115-120 mph IAS. Don't keep so much power on that you'll be making a power approach. However, keep enough power on to keep your engine clean (about 20-25 inches of Hg on final at a descent rate of 500 fpm at 120 mph IAS at 9,000 lbs. aircraft wt.) Just before getting to the runway, break your glide, make a smooth roundout, and approach the runway in a 3-point attitude. Hold the plane off in the 3-point attitude just barely above the runway until you lose flying speed and the plane sets down. The P-51 doesn't mush but stalls rather suddenly when you lose flying speed. So have your plane close to the runway at this point.

[Fragmentum 1]

I have left several posts at the Shockwaveproductions forum, as have other registered users.Please review them for additional comments that may be helpful.I mentioned the taillight on the rudder is not attached with rudder deflection (seems a common problem with many publishers), way too much dirt and debri kicked up on non-paved airstrips, and the landing characteristics compared to many other warbird purchases is 'different', such as bouncing like the Yak-3 from CaptainSim, speed scrub off with flaps and gear is very slow....Still, a very good production and I love the VC!Still getting used to the handling of this product, and have flown just about every other P-51 Mustang offered as flight sim add-ons....

[Guest]

yes, a basic rehash of "it's your problem not ours"...1) 500fpm is "way too steep"?2) 40% fuel in wingtanks and everything else empty is too heavy for a normal landing?3) it's callibrated to be idle slightly above the stop.Remains the simple fact that the data in the manual are wrong. Which is not surprising as that data relates to the B-17 and not the P-51.

[Guest SD_Research]

>yes, a basic rehash of "it's your problem not ours"...>>1) 500fpm is "way too steep"?>2) 40% fuel in wingtanks and everything else empty is too>heavy for a normal landing?>3) it's callibrated to be idle slightly above the stop.>>Remains the simple fact that the data in the manual are wrong.>Which is not surprising as that data relates to the B-17 and>not the P-51.>We have responded in great detail to this customer's concern on the Shockwave forum. Clearly there is a setup issue with the throttle calibration. If the sensitivity for the throttle is not set to maximum, the throttle will not close completely, and may stay open as much as 20 percent or more. As many of the astute folks above have stated, the Mustang is a VERY slippery aircraft. The CDo figure in the flight model is correct, taken directly from NACA data, so, as one fellow mention, speed management is of paramount importance.The comment regarding data being for the B-17 is puzzling, as all information in the P-51 checklists is specifically for the Mustangs.We will post a video of a proper landing to demonstrate that there is not an issue with the flight dynamics, and that this plane does indeed fly by the book. And thanks to all of you who have purchased this aircraft and have taken the time to get to know her a bit before rushing to judgment; it is not a Cessna by any means! Get some seat time and she'll reward you well.

[Guest SD_Research]

>yep, suffering from that as well.>The official reply on their forums is a non-reply, stating we>should just slow down more (like we don't know that, that's>the complaint after all).>>I doubt they'll fix that, seeing their attitude so far towards>the problem, so I'm trying to tweak the fde myself a bit, also>attempting to fix the complete lack of effect from the flaps>(there's no change in lift whatsoever when deploying flaps).>>In another fde problem, bring her level and reduce throttle.>The Mustang will start to climb steeply without loosing any>speed at all...There is most certainly a change in lift when the flaps are deployed. If you have an .air file editor you can very quickly check to see that there is a positive entry in the proper field. You can also check this, if you have the patience and technique, by doing a 1 g stall with flaps up and then flaps down. You will notice that the stalling speed goes down when the flaps are down.We appreciate that you are having trouble and are making every effort to assist you in resolving your difficulties, but when you make comments that are inaccurate, we do feel compelled to respond.

[Guest SD_Research]

>After flying the Mustang a little more, I don't really think>bleeding the speed down is a big issue; most of the fighters>from that war were clean, and the Mustang especially so>(between wing, fuselage, and radiator duct design).>>However, it seemed when I dropped the first notch of flap>around 150 mph with the gear down, the nose took a dip. Not>sure this is correct, since the first notch of flap was often>used to create lift to tighten the turn radius in combat>(typically called combat flaps, but that's a bit of a>misnomer). However, I have to reserve judgement since>apparently several Mustang pilots helped design the flight>model.>>DanHi Dan,Thanks for taking the time to sort out the technique needed to land this plane, it's no trainer!Regarding your concern about the pitch change when the flaps are deployed, here is some background. The pitch change with flap extension can be either nose-up or nose-down depending on the particular type aircraft. This is because the pitch change is a result of the flaps changing the air flow over the elevator. It is dependent on a number of factors, such as whether the aircraft is a high, mid, or low-wing design, and varies with the individual aircraft. The bottom line here is that there is no hard/fast rule that the nose always pitches up when the flaps are extended. However, most aircraft will tend to gain a little altitude unless the pilot takes some sort of corrective action as the flaps are coming down. The flaps take around 15 seconds to come down in the Mustang so that provides ample time to make trim and power changes so as to maintain your glidepath.Now, on the Mustang in particular. Page 66 of the P-51 Pilot Training Manual states the following:"When you lower the flaps, the airplane becomes nose-heavy."Hope this clarifies things a bit.

[Guest Dann]

>Now, on the Mustang in particular. Page 66 of the P-51 Pilot>Training Manual states the following:>>"When you lower the flaps, the airplane becomes nose-heavy.">>Hope this clarifies things a bit.Absolutely...I thought it was gear down which made it nose heavy. Thanks for the information on flaps and nose up/down issues!Dan

[Guest Dann]

>yes, a basic rehash of "it's your problem not ours"...>>1) 500fpm is "way too steep"?>2) 40% fuel in wingtanks and everything else empty is too>heavy for a normal landing?>3) it's callibrated to be idle slightly above the stop.I think that was a little unfair. Okay, just a bit of history: I was introduced to a civilian Mustang in Flight Unlimited III. With a modified flight model, it flew pretty close to how it should, based on many hours of personal research. Now, that plane was a b**ch to land! However, I did learn, despite probable faults in its flight model, to plan ahead because it, like any clean aircraft, just doesn't want to slow down.Now, I have yet to prang the Wings of Power P-51 on landing, although I admit I'm using fairly long runways, just like I would if I really owned one of these amazing planes.It's easy getting below 150 mph, just realize it's going to take a little longer than the 172.Dan

[Guest Dann]

>...way too much dirt and debri kicked up on>non-paved airstrips...Just a comment on that. While watching Glacier Girl (restored P-38) idle, I saw a crew member approach the engine to look for a problem they were having.It was absolutely amazing how much of a gale force wind is produced at just idle, indicated by watching how fiercely his hair and clothes blew. That said, I could easily imagine a lot of dust and debris being tossed up by a Mustang taxiing across a dirt road. Besides, I kind of like the effect...Just my thoughts.Dan