Circle to Land in IFR?

[KevinAu 441]

>>Circling is NOT a VFR procedure by any stretch.It is an IFR>procedure done with minimum visability and cloud base>requirements often below VFR criteria.<>>I think we are being pedantic circling is the termination of>an IFR (Instrument flight rules) procedure but after leaving>the Instrument approach and descending below the MDA for the>circle you are no longer flying a published procedure but have>changed over to a visual procedure which requires you to>remain visual with the touchdown point.>I don't think it is pedantic at all. A circling maneuver is not by any means the termination of IFR procedures. In fact, it is something that is a part of almost every published instrument approach procedure, the only way to land from some instrument approaches, and something which is tested on an instrument rating checkride. I think that it is wrong to insist that a circle to land is a VFR maneuver. It is done in conditions that are below VFR. It is done as part of an instrument approach. It has criteria that has to be met in the TERPS. And it has well defined guidance on how it should be undertaken in the IFR PTS and AIM sections. Please stop insisting that it is some kind of VFR maneuver. There is no difference between a circling to land and descending below DA on an ILS. Both require you to maintain visual reference with certain parts of the landing surface, both require you to initiate a missed approach if you lose those references and neither cancels your IFR. A circle to land just requires a little more piloting work. You may personally be uncomfortable undertaken a circle to land maneuver in minimum conditions, but let us not let that confuse the original question about why a circle to land is assigned on an otherwise "instrument" approach. I understand your conservative approach to safety, but don't let that make you forget that a circle to land is a normal IFR procedure that IFR capable pilots should stay proficient in if they are to fly in the IFR system.

[Guest aca_dia]

No need. You don

[ronzie 21]

Just a brief comment that on some plates there are indications that:(1.) Circle to land prohibited (sometimes limited to CAT classifications).(2.) Circling prohibited between x degrees and x degrees or other indication based in headings and/or runway locations. Therefore this takes into account local obstacle protrusion above circling MSA.

[Guest DNelson]

I think you guys are confusing IFR with IMC (Instrument Meteorlogical Conditions). Circle to land is most definitely an IFR procedure. You're still in the ATC IFR system, and as such are provided with separation with other IFR traffic in the area when cleared for a circling approach. This is an important distinction, because in the event you have to go missed, you're still in the system. This is entirely different than if you cancel IFR. When you cancel, you're removed from the ATC system and are not guaranteed separation with other IFR aircraft. If you subsequently encounter IMC conditions, you may have to re-file, be assigned a new squawk code, and receive a new clearance.Peter, I believe, is referring more to IMC than IFR. A circling approach has to be conducted in VMC, where you always have the landing runway in sight. The weather could well be below legal VFR minimums, but as long as the ceiling and visibility meet the published circling minimums, the approach is a perfectly legal (though not always smart) IFR procedure.

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

>Peter, I believe, is referring more to IMC than IFR. A circling approach has to be conducted in VMC, where you always have the landing runway in sight. The weather could well be below legal VFR minimums, but as long as the ceiling and visibility meet the published circling minimums, the approach is a perfectly legal (though not always smart) IFR procedure.

[Guest DNelson]

There can be a huge variety in the amount of manuvering required for a circling approach. Here are two examples from my very limited experience.During my instrument training, the first circling approach we did made me very uncomfortable, and it was in clear skies and unlimited visibility. I couldn't imagine doing it in marginal weather. We flew a VOR approach to rwy 7, and in order to fit us in with all the VFR traffic, the tower had us circle to rwy 16. I popped the hood off at the MDA of about 500 feet, and ended up having to fly a continuous 270-degree descending turn. By the time I rolled out of the turn I was probably less than 200 feet AGL, very close to the threshold, and not quite lined up, so I had to do a little more turning to get to the runway centerline as I was crossing the threshold. Doing that much manuvering that low was very uncomfortable.The other extreme was flying an ILS to rwy 3. There was plenty of ceiling and visibility below the overcast, and the tower had me circle to rwy 34. That's only a 50-degree heading change, and a very shallow turn at 800 feet AGL was all that was needed. No big deal at all.

[Guest aca_dia]

"While I appreciate that the circle to land is an IFR procedure and part of the IFR flight it is not an instrument approach."It is part of an instrument approach done visually not an instrument approach on its own. It is usually done when conditions are legally IFR or even in marginal VFR when approaches are being conducted (1000' overcast /3sm visibility or less is IFR). It is a visual maneuver but it is part of an instrument approach procedure. Remember these are published and you are given a specific clearance to fly them.You are 100% correct that circling is a visual maneuver that does not rely on instrument navigation (unless you have to go missed). It is also most certainly part of an instrument approach that requires an IFR flight plan, a clearance, and minimum conditions. You must also go missed like a straight in approach if you lose sight of the runway environment.Douglas

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

>(2.) Circling prohibited between x degrees and x degrees or other indication based in headings and/or runway locations. Therefore this takes into account local obstacle protrusion above circling MSA.

[Guest Kingair315]

>>(2.) Circling prohibited between x degrees and x degrees or>other indication based in headings and/or runway locations.>Therefore this takes into account local obstacle protrusion>above circling MSA.<>>I have no problem when you are at or above the circling MSA>its the part when you are below.>>Many pilots have literally become lost on circling approaches>especially as stated with a big dollop of strong winds scud>clouds and turbulence.>Wouldnt that be a "Pilot Error" when you are not supposed to go below the circling MSA? Don't they become "lost" from not trusting instruments?

[N562Z 4]

Being from Chicago originally, I travel there frequently to visit family and friends, usually arriving at Midway, KMDW. Southwest Airlines' crews seem to love the circle-to-land clearance based on the runway 31 Center ILS, then circling at low altitude, just above the rooftops seemingly, to runway 13L I believe. I've witnessed this approach many times as a passenger with a window on the left side. Additionally there is a nice CTL approach to Samos, Greece, LGSM, that begins with an awesome VOR-DME outbound descending teardrop course reversal that takes you southeast then basically brings you back north to the field, heading 360, at a 90 degree angle to the field. You then do your left or right downwind, depending on winds, to runways 09 or 27, all at the MDA of 1850 feet. According to the approach plate, which I have but cannot access right now, if you're not visual at 1850 before you start the downwind, it's a missed approach, and you continue north, over the field and climb to a specific altitude and hold on a designated radial of the Samos (SAM) VOR. My Jep chart at home shows the altitude restrictions, sorry this one is all I could find at work..http://www.2decker.com/media/solent1-2.JPAlex ChristoffN562ZBaltimore, MDhttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/104180.gif

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

>Wouldnt that be a "Pilot Error" when you are not supposed to go below the circling MSA? Don't they become "lost" from not trusting instruments?

[quantumleap 1]

I'm also working on my real-world IFR ticket and was interested in what your instructor said regarding this. Mine has made it very clear that until such time as you are effectively on final for the runway you are circling to land on, you are not allowed to descend below the MDA. This is to guarantee obstacle clearance which starting to descend earlier would not necessarily allow.

[KevinAu 441]

>I'm also working on my real-world IFR ticket and was>interested in what your instructor said regarding this. Mine>has made it very clear that until such time as you are>effectively on final for the runway you are circling to land>on, you are not allowed to descend below the MDA. This is to>guarantee obstacle clearance which starting to descend earlier>would not necessarily allow.>That makes no sense. You are allowed to descend below MDA as long as you have the required visual references and the aircraft is in a position to descend to the runway of intended landing using normal rates of descent and normal maneuvers. (91.175) Ask your instructor this. If you are using Category A minimums with a circling MDA that is 700'agl, how is he going to comply with his own rule of not descending until established on final and complying with 91.175's requirement to descend using normal maneuvers. A Category A circling area is only 1.3 miles radius from the runway end. And if you will agree that a 3 degree slope is a normal descent, then for a normal descent, you need a 2.1 mile long final from 700' above ground. How will he fit a 2.1 mile final within 1.3 miles from the runway?

[Guest nattydread]

As stated in section 5-4-20 of the AIM 2005(ASA FAR/AIM 2005 pg. 718):If visual reference is lost while circling-to-land from an instrument approach, the missed approach specified for that particular procedure must be followed(unless an alternative missed approach procedure is specified by ATC). To become established on the prescribed missed approach course, the pilot should make an initial climbing turn toward the landing runway and continue the turn until established on the missed approach course. It further says:Adherence to the procedure will assure that an aircraft will remain within the circling and missed approach obstruction clearance areas. The Circle-to-land procedure can be looked at as a visual manuver, but an IFR procedure. Its not much different than the visual landing required after descending below the DA on the CAT I ILS...though it does require much more manuvering. One could get lost doing a circle-to-land but there are things you can do to help minimize the possibilty:Since your landing visually you dont need the approach frequencies dialed anymore, have the missed approach dialed in already. Since you should always have the runway in sight, you will always now what direction to turn to head toward the landing runway if you do lose sight. As you turn toward the runway you just follow the OBI or HSI to your missed approach course.The 1.3-2.3nm(4.5nm for class E which no one shoul dbe flying) safety zone will provide enough distance for a reasonable descent profile in conjuction with the MDA. 700ft AGL on a class C cirlce-to-land with a safety zone of 1.7nm provides a 411ft/nm or 4.10 deg descent angle...a bit steep for an ILS but just fine for a visual.

[Guest Kingair315]

>You have to go below the circling MSA at some point as you>have to land ;-)The idea is that you should be visual when you>do that.>>Once you have left the instrument approach portion and are on>the circling approach portion you are no longer flying>instruments to trust you are flying a visual pattern.>>PeterWell I'd be flying a circle, maintaining the altitude, watching my instruments for the correct heading, until I could see the runway to line up with it. At this point, I'd still be at the same MSA altitude. If within the time it takes to fly the circle, still cant see the runway, declare a missed approach, and climb out on the heading of that runway. To me, losing any altitude _until_ I can see the runway that Im supposed to land on, is an error on my part.Actually, I fly using my instruments _all_ the time, even when the airfield is visible. To me it is a good way to practice, watching them and timing the approach, even when the field is visible.