Circle to Land in IFR?

[N562Z 4]

Here is the real world, well, Jepp SimCharts, plate for the Samos VOR-DME circling approach. Try it sometime. Like Peter says, single pilot circle to land approaches are high work-load procedures, and I've never done one in the real world!http://www.2decker.com/media/solent1-2.JPAlex ChristoffN562ZBaltimore, MDhttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/104214.jpg

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

KingairI think a lot of the confusion here and I am to blame for not explaining myself properly is the definition of VFR, IFR, VMC, IMC and instrument approaches.An instrument approach is an approach which is carried out using the instruments in an aircraft and navigation aids.There are the instruments in the aircraft for blind flying and to operate the aircraft with no outside visual reference and there are navigational aid instruments which are used to bring that aircraft to a certain point.On an instrument approach that point is a point where a visual landing can be made such as at 200 feet breaking cloud on an ILS.A circle to land while being part of an IFR procedure is not part of an instrument approach because it does NOT rely on flying the aircraft on instruments and does not use navigation aids to bring you to a landing.The instrument approach might be for an ILS onto R/W 36 at Confusion airfield :-) but that instrument approach only goes as far as placing you at a point where you can land at R/W 36.a circle to land is a procedure where you may use a portion of the instrument approach for R/W 36 to break cloud at an MDA where the powers that be consider the minimum conditions for you to make a visual procedure onto the other end of the runway.Take a piper Cub with no nav aids and no instrument flying aids.Magic that piper cub onto the MDA point on the ILS for 36 and it would equally well be able to fly the circle to land to R/W 18 at the other end becuase this procedure does not require reference to instruments or the use of Nav aids.Once off the instrument approach for 36 the aircraft is in no mans land flying visually and with no way of determining drift with a 50kts wind at say 800 feet other than with visual reference to the ground.Should that aircraft loose visual contact and become uncertain of its position it then has to again become an instrument flown aircraft using nav aids to re-locate itself at a point where it can carry out a missed approach procedure for NOT runway 18 but for runway 36.This is my last shot at explaining :-)Peter

[Guest byoung]

Thanks everyone for the excellent explanations.The bottom line is if the airport is very overcast, low clouds / fog, I wouldn't feel comfortable doing a Circle To Land approach, unless I had an FMS or other type of instrument to aid with the approach. In this case, any kind of visual approach was out of the question in terms of comfort and safety.The main issue is that FS ATC doesn't give any options for changing the approach. With the winds being very minimal, I would have preferred landing on 6L. But in the real world, I don't know if this is possible, since it would impact other traffic taxiing, departing, and landing.Thanks again everyone!Barry

[Guest Darren Howie]

Hi PeteI can understand why you would take athe limit tailwind rather than circle because i would do the same thing!!However in the US most airports have a runway aligned approach.Here in Australia it has really only been the advent of the GPS NPA which has put Rwy approaches at most IFR airports.Many of the ports i fly into require you to circle to some degree to be able to get in and if the wind is greater then 10kts you can't take the downwind so a full circling approach is required.As a professional pilot you are expected to be competent at flying circling approaches to a good standard.In fact almost every sim session i do involves at least one full circle to land excercise.As i said above a properly flown circling approach is difficult to do.But if the correct procedures are followed there is no scud running at all with a minimum of 300' terrain seperation at all times simply by not descending below the circling minima.Two crew its really not that hard but single pilot is a different kettle of fish and equires real discipline and good technique and procedures every time you fly one as one major lapse and you can be in real strife.Like you i'd always take the rwy approach but as a pilot by trade often you don't get to choose.SeeyaDarren

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

Darren and all this has been a really interesting thread and I hope no hard feelings with anyone.Most circling approaches are a joy to fly in the right conditions but having experienced a nasty situation two crew in a business jet I felt honour bound to fire a warning.I felt I had to attempt to explain that a circling approach cannot be conceived as an Instrument approach and once away from the instrument approach you are in no mans land especially as in our case above we had a 50 kt crosswind.I have included my last posting incase it wasnt seen as I hope it clarifies what I wasnt doing a good job of clarifying earlier.CheersPeter>KingairI think a lot of the confusion here and I am to blame for not explaining myself properly is the definition of VFR, IFR, VMC, IMC and instrument approaches.An instrument approach is an approach which is carried out using the instruments in an aircraft and navigation aids.There are the instruments in the aircraft for blind flying and to operate the aircraft with no outside visual reference and there are navigational aid instruments which are used to bring that aircraft to a certain point.On an instrument approach that point is a point where a visual landing can be made such as at 200 feet breaking cloud on an ILS.A circle to land while being part of an IFR procedure is not part of an instrument approach because it does NOT rely on flying the aircraft on instruments and does not use navigation aids to bring you to a landing.The instrument approach might be for an ILS onto R/W 36 at Confusion airfield but that instrument approach only goes as far as placing you at a point where you can land at R/W 36.a circle to land is a procedure where you may use a portion of the instrument approach for R/W 36 to break cloud at an MDA where the powers that be consider the minimum conditions for you to make a visual procedure onto the other end of the runway.Take a piper Cub with no nav aids and no instrument flying aids.Magic that piper cub onto the MDA point on the ILS for 36 and it would equally well be able to fly the circle to land to R/W 18 at the other end becuase this procedure does not require reference to instruments or the use of Nav aids.Once off the instrument approach for 36 the aircraft is in no mans land flying visually and with no way of determining drift with a 50kts wind at say 800 feet other than with visual reference to the ground.Should that aircraft loose visual contact and become uncertain of its position it then has to again become an instrument flown aircraft using nav aids to re-locate itself at a point where it can carry out a missed approach procedure for NOT runway 18 but for runway 36.This is my last shot at explaining

[Guest aca_dia]

I think you explained it pretty well. Remember every instrument approach (except maybe a CAT III ILS) has to transition from pure instrument flight to visual flight before landing. On a non-precision approach you don

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

Douglas I have no problems with what you are saying above, all I will add is that in precision or non precision approaches both are instrument approaches to a specific runway with their own missed approach procedures.The circle to land is "NOT" an instrument approach but a visual joining procedure. It uses an instrument approach onto one runway to place you into a position where you can make a visual join onto another runway.That is all I am trying to say and the caution is that the difference between the two is important.Take care and no hard feelings :-)Peter

[Guest aca_dia]

"The circle to land is "NOT" an instrument approach but a visual joining procedure. It uses an instrument approach onto one runway to place you into a position where you can make a visual join onto another runway.That is all I am trying to say and the caution is that the difference between the two is important."I agree with that 100%. No reason for anyone to have hard feelings. Good discussion that motivates me to review my procedures!Douglas

[Guest Kingair315]

>On an instrument approach that point is a point where a visualIve been using the FS for over two decades, have have been flying VFR off and on since 1960, but have to fly with several friends who are licensed pilots. I pay the rental, and fly, they come along for the ride to make it legal, as I Can't pass the physical... >A circle to land while being part of an IFR procedure is not>part of an instrument approach because it does NOT rely on>flying the aircraft on instruments and does not use navigation>aids to bring you to a landing.Understand, it may not always be part of a IFR landing, but in this discussion it was a part of an IFR landing. Until you go visual, you are still in an IFR flight. If you dont tell ATC that you are in sight of the field, you are still in an IFR flight. If a pilot cant see the field, it would be a bit foolish to say you can. Even in the FS, I do not tell ATC the field is in sight, if there are lots of clouds which could block my vision, like with real weather at Jackson WY. Sometimes have had to go around several times before the clouds cleared enough to see the runway, and need ATC almost until you are on the ground. Only when centered on the Runway, and below the MDA do I then notify ATC the runway is in sight. >a circle to land is a procedure where you may use a portion of>the instrument approach for R/W 36 to break cloud at an MDA>where the powers that be consider the minimum conditions for>you to make a visual procedure onto the other end of the>runway.Yes, have made that approach at KFUL where there is an ILS on R24. About 85% of the time my landings are made on R24, but the rest of the time on R6 where you circle to land because of wind conditions. There is also a Radio Tower on a Hill which is higher than 200 ft so you must stay higher to avoid it, and with noise abatement, you best stay above 1000, until you must go below. I'd not even begin a circle, until past that tower, and far enough away for the approach. >Take a piper Cub with no nav aids and no instrument flying aids.>Magic that piper cub onto the MDA point on the ILS for 36 and>it would equally well be able to fly the circle to land to R/W>18 at the other end becuase this procedure does not require>reference to instruments or the use of Nav aids.What may be confusing, is bringing into a discussion of an IFR landing, an aircraft not equipted to be flying IFR. This aircraft would not even be flying under IFR conditions without nav or instrument flying aids.>Once off the instrument approach for 36 the aircraft is in no>mans land flying visually and with no way of determining drift>with a 50kts wind at say 800 feet other than with visual>reference to the ground.Then, I'd NOT be flying circle to land, but would go missed, and find a field with lower winds. Doubt very much anyone in a Piper without instruments would be making an attempt to land with a 50kt wind. In CA such winds could be gusting to 60 or 70kts. Ive seen UPS Pilots do several go arounds before landing, with only 35kt winds gusting to 50-80kts at Ontario, CA. Even then was amazed when they got a break in the gusts and landed with a 35-40kt cross wind. I'd have sworn the low wing was going to hit the ground. Personally, I'd not even be landing a C182 with instruments with these cross winds, would not be flying that day. ;-)>Should that aircraft loose visual contact and become uncertain>of its position it then has to again become an instrument>flown aircraft using nav aids to re-locate itself at a point>where it can carry out a missed approach procedure for NOT>runway 18 but for runway 36. In KFUL (alt 100ft) have never seen a day when the ground was obscured by fog with 50kt winds. Fog blows away long before the winds get that high. If you become uncertain of your position, ATC has you up on Radar, and can direct you through the missed approach for the runway. Certainly would not hesitate to call ATC to say Im lost. ;-) If Kennedy had done so, he and his passengers would probably be alive today.IF I cant see the runway from above the 9000' mountains at Big Bear (L35), I'll land elsewhere. With Big Bear at 6000' and clouds at/or above 7000, am not going down into a field surrounded by mountains, blind. Certainly not with winds over 30kts. With the winds bouncing off the passes and surrounding mountains, they constantly change directions, and visibility can change with them. With airfields all around the mountains, in every direction, less than 35-50 miles, it makes no sense. Would not even do it in the FS, it creates bad habits. :-) Those who have tried foolish things around Big Bear, are not here to tell about it. A few years ago, a pilot attempted to depart from Big Bear City overloaded in IFR conditions. He could not gain sufficient altitude to get over the mountains straight out over the lake. If it had been clear, he could have followed the road out, but evidently could not even see the road, so crashed. Bob

[Guest Kingair315]

Actually, FS ATC does give options, you need to request them. In this case, I'd divert to another field. IF you land her frequently, and the prevailing winds are normally from one direction, you can use AFCAD to make a change. An example is at KFUL, where well over 85% of the time you land on R24, ATC was always sending me to R6, as AI traffic was taking off using R6. I closed R6 with AFCAD, so then ATC always brings me in on R24. Even if you have never used AFCAD, it is easy. Just load the field, press + tab to enlarge the field so the runway is very large. Double Click on the edge, and it brings up the menu. In the configuartion for R6, I just clicked closed for takeoff, and closed for landing, and saved it.... While at it, you can also do lots of fun things with AFCAD, like adding parking you want, where you want it, etc..

[Guest DNelson]

>If you become uncertain of your position, ATC has you up on Radar, and can direct you through the missed approach for the runway

[Guest byoung]

>>Actually, FS ATC does give options, you need to request them. In this case, I'd divert to another field. IF you land her frequently, and the prevailing winds are normally from one direction, you can use AFCAD to make a change <

[Guest Kingair315]

When ATC will not let me make a change due to FS9, we can always cancel the flight plan, call the tower and make a request... As a last resort, you can always land in the grass. ;-)

[Guest Darren Howie]

G'day PeteYea mate no problems.I was trying to say the same as you which is where possible you would like to avoid doing a circling approach.Apart from our own real life experiences you have statistically a 9x higer probability of a CFIT incident!!Out here though we have to contend with them fairly often which is probably a good thing.I would HATE to have to do one without regular practice and training.All the bestDarren

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

>Apart from our own real life experiences you have statistically a 9x higer probability of a CFIT incident!!