Circle to Land in IFR?

[Guest Kefuddle]

Circle to land is not a visual approach. It is also called descend to manouvre. In approach plates it has a seperate minima restriction which is always higher than ILS. Contrary to what has been said in this thread, you cannot descend from your MSA until you have a visual reference with the ground, you are under ATC radar control or you are following a published approach procedure.Circle to land is used when the runway in use does not have an ILS. The basic procedure is that the aircraft will join an ILS and descend down the ILS, not below minimums, until visual reference with the runway has been achieved. The aircraft will then break off and follow the circle to land procedure as stated in the INSTRUMENT approach plate. The aircraft MUST maintain visual reference with the runway as it circles to visual finals, whence it may continue its descent to land. If the visual reference is not achieved before minimums or the visual reference is lost then the missed approach procedure is executed.

[Guest Darren Howie]

Hi PeteWe as in "we".I think all survivors of single pilot bad weather ops have their own experiences they can relate to!!Take care.Darren

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

Cannot agree with this.Any instrument approach has by its nature to be an approach which involves navigational aids.Whether that is a precision or non precision approach both types use navigational aids to locate aircraft at specific point/points.Where the interpretation goes hazy is where the circle to land is regarded in an equivalent way to the visual part of say an ILS when the pilot becomes visual at 200 feet and continues to land visually.On an NDB or VOR non precision approach again the pilot becomes visual at the minimum MDA and vis for the approach and continues to a landing from a higher and further out point.On these approaches the pilot always has reference to that aid ie on the ILS although he is visual to land he still has localiser and glide references and is still established on that instrument approach with a missed approach to bring him back around for another go or to a safe location to go somewhere else.The same goes for the non precision approaches the pilot is again established on a VOR or NDB radial.Where the circle to land is different and hence why the circle cannot be classified as an instrument approach is that the circle is a "visual procedure". No more no less.The circle to land involves "NO" navigational aids whatsoever so cannot be classified as an instrument approach.Its missed approach involves "no" navigation aids and only uses a direction and a haphazard one at that to go back a position where you can re establish onto an instrument approach which does have a missed approach procedure.While on the circle explain to me how without ground reference a pilot can compensate for drift from a 50 kt wind? or locate himself by use of navigational aids.The circle to land is a procedure which allows you to use an instrument approach to one runway. It allows you to break off that approach at a level and visibility where the powers that be decide you can visually fly to the other end of a runway which has no instrument approach and make a visual landing onto that runway or even onto a different runway altogether.Pilots do get lost as easely as VFR pilot on circle to lands. statistically they are procedures which are fraught with danger especially at airfields which do not have radar and where the approaches are pilot interpretated.Transitioning from instruments to a poor visibility visual approach itself adds confusion to the pilot at the end of a hard IFR trip and hence the caution with a visual circle to land.There have been occurences of pilots making approaches onto roads, disused airfields, getting thoroughly lost and making CFIT accidents so it is important that they are regarded for what they are and not as some sort of instrument approach in themselves.Peter

[Guest Kefuddle]

>>Any instrument approach has by its nature to be an approach which >>involves navigational aids...The circle to land involves "NO" >>navigational aids whatsoever so cannot be classified as an instrument >>approach. It does, an ILS on another runway. The circle to land procedure has all the formal segments of an instrument approach: arrival, initial, intermediate, final and missed approach. Only the final segment at or below MDA is visual.To try an bring this discussion to a end I shall quote JAR OPS:"Circling: The visual phase of an instrument approach to bring an aircraft into position for landing on a runway which is not suitably located for a straight in approch.">>statistically they are procedures which are fraught with danger >>especially at airfields which do not have radar and where the >>approaches are pilot interpretated.>>Transitioning from instruments to a poor visibility visual approach >>itself adds confusion to the pilot at the end of a hard IFR trip and >>hence the caution with a visual circle to land.Again I shall quote JAR OPS min requirements: Class A (e.g. PA28): MDH 400' VIS 1.5kmClass B (e.g. Seneca): MDH 500' VIS 1.6kmClass C (e.g. King Air): MDH 600' VIS 2.4kmClass D (e.g. A320/747): MDH 700' VIS 3.6kmWith required heights and visibilities such as those it beggers belief how anybody could try and land on a road or wot not.FWIW, JAR Ops is almost a carbon copy of the ICAO pan ops which is adopted by all ICAO states with minimal differences...including the US.As you can see, it isn't a wishy washy take your chances do you feel lucky type of flying. It is a formal published procedure. To quote the Coventry UK approach plate. ILS DME Rwy 23 Circle-To-Land for Class D (heavy) Max speed 205 kts, MDA 1040', min vis 3600m, plenty of room for safety.

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

>Circling: The visual phase of an instrument approach to bring an aircraft into position for landing on a runway which is not suitably located for a straight in approch."

[KevinAu 441]

Peter, the original question was why did ATC issue this circle to land thingamabob on an ILS approach during IFR. And the simple answer is that a circle to land is a part of an instrument approach. The orginal questioner did not understand that a circle to land is an IFR procedure, though visually accomplished, that can be done towards the end phase of an instrument approach to complete a landing as part of your IFR flight. I think he understands this now. This discussion is getting very pedantic and unimportant now.

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

Kevin I agree its way past its sell by date :-)and on that point I am dropping out :-)Peter

[Guest Kefuddle]

It is either an IFR approach or a VFR approach. There isn't anything else. Here's a question for you all. This was an actual question in the Air Law exam that I sat a while back.Q. You are receiving a "Visual Approach" in VMC in Class C airspace. What seperation will you receive?A) All approach traffic:( All trafficC) IFR traffic onlyD) No seperation