Just a short flight through the Alps ...

[mwilk 1,106]

This is pissing me off. Can we get the AI/ATC issue resolved because this sim is really starting to come into it's own...

Dillon,

I'm even willing to forgo the ATC if there was a decent AI program. I'm trying to decide if I wan't to get the FF 757 that is on sale or Orbrx NorCal for FSX. I'm leaning towards the 757.

[Dillon 2,197]

Dillon,

I'm even willing to forgo the ATC if there was a decent AI program. I'm trying to decide if I wan't to get the FF 757 that is on sale or Orbrx NorCal for FSX. I'm leaning towards the 757.

I can't support this sim without the environment planes fly in on a day to day bases. Looks alone can't do it, heck FDE modeling can't do it by itself. A sim modeling the GA world (non military) has to model the living world around an aircraft from other Aircraft to the ATC world we all must conform to. That should be the next big development of X-Plane, the living world around an aircraft aloft in the skies.

[uwespeed 497]

I can't support this sim without the environment planes fly in on a day to day bases. Looks alone can't do it, heck FDE modeling can't do it by itself. A sim modeling the GA world (non military) has to model the living world around an aircraft from other Aircraft to the ATC world we all must conform to. That should be the next big development of X-Plane, the living world around an aircraft aloft in the skies.

 

Ok ... but, out of curiosity, one question: what would you do in a full flight sim? There is no ATC and no AI at all - would you say "I can't support this sim ...." and walk out backwards? :lol:

 

I can only speak for myself - I was three times in full flight sim and it was a fantastic experince. XP gives me the same sensation of flight, even without (great) ATC and AI, but alone FDE and look.

Of course I wouldn't disapprove good ATC and AI, but it isn't "the one thing which makes a flight simulator a flight simulator" ...

 

However, each one should enjoy what makes him happy. And now, back on topic ... ^_^

[Dillon 2,197]

Ok ... but, out of curiosity, one question: what would you do in a full flight sim? There is no ATC and no AI at all - would you say "I can't support this sim ...." and walk out backwards? :lol:

 

I can only speak for myself - I was three times in full flight sim and it was a fantastic experince. XP gives me the same sensation of flight, even without (great) ATC and AI, but alone FDE and look.

Of course I wouldn't disapprove good ATC and AI, but it isn't "the one thing which makes a flight simulator a flight simulator" ...

 

However, each one should enjoy what makes him happy. And now, back on topic ... ^_^

 

 

It's not about a comparison to a real world Level-D Sim it's about how this stands up to it's current rival on the market, the MS Flight Simulator series (FS9, FSX, and P3D v2).  With visuals like those pictured in this thread I'd like it to fully stand toe to toe with it's direct competition.  If these two key areas are addressed at some point XPlane might win out with the number of users adopting it. 

[PCAviator 37]

It's not about a comparison to a real world Level-D Sim it's about how this stands up to it's current rival on the market, the MS Flight Simulator series (FS9, FSX, and P3D v2).  With visuals like those pictured in this thread I'd like it to fully stand toe to toe with it's direct competition.  If these two key areas are addressed at some point XPlane might win out with the number of users adopting it. 

 

Let's not forget that just because it doesn't currently have ATC or AI up to a FSX standard, that does not discount the fact that these photos are amazing and arguably better than what you can pull from FSX or P3D right now. So it wins brownie points in its own right here. I don't think Austin Meyer really wants to copy what FSX has done or what P3D is doing. I am sure he has his own goals and direction to take X-Plane. Besides, X-Plane was never meant to be a flight simulator anyway... It has become one over a good number of years. Take a look back at some past interviews with Austin and you can get a good insight into the history, and future of the X-Plane product.  

[Dillon 2,197]

Let's not forget that just because it doesn't currently have ATC or AI up to a FSX standard, that does not discount the fact that these photos are amazing and arguably better than what you can pull from FSX or P3D right now. So it wins brownie points in its own right here. I don't think Austin Meyer really wants to copy what FSX has done or what P3D is doing. I am sure he has his own goals and direction to take X-Plane. Besides, X-Plane was never meant to be a flight simulator anyway... It has become one over a good number of years. Take a look back at some past interviews with Austin and you can get a good insight into the history, and future of the X-Plane product.

 

Well thought out ATC/AI is not copying, it's a basic feature any desktop sim on this level should have (especially modeling general aviation). Heck Falcon 3.0 in the military arena released back in the early 90's had this for it's theater of war operations. Let's not forget EF2000 or Total Air War from DID. No matter how you slice it having more creative features versus lacking in features is always the way to go. Statements like yours is really reaching to look past the apparent holes in this sim (something that needs to be addressed, requested in the year 2014 when I can call up well thought out examples going back to 1993). It's like having a word processor without a spell checker. Once the genie was out the bottle all competition followed suit. No one wanted to hear what direction a specific word processor was going originally. If you want to corner the market you have to not only add features people have come to expect but build on that. To have a home based sim that offers nothing but visuals is mis-leading to anyone interested in real world aviation (the target market of this sim). You can't fly without interacting with other aircraft and ATC in the real world plus you have three home based sims that give you all of this. Why would anyone fool with X-Plane at this point outside of it's core nitch? You can't just fly into an airport without clearance or letting traffic around you know your intentions. If X-Plane was like Aerofly FS I wouldn't say anything but it has always been a rival to the MSFS series. Home based simulation has moved past flying in lonely skies since the release of FS2k2 (November of 2001). X-Plane has now hit prime time visually so making excuses for it does the brand no favors. It's been touted as a trainer over the years and since the next big thing will be P3D v2 geared towards real world training by a major real world aircraft manufacturer X-Plane will need to step up it's game. Microsoft shied away from being a serious simulator even though it was and let X-Plane get recognition by the FAA. That day is gone as LM is going for the training market head on using this community to get their software streamlined. X-Plane can not continue to offer little more than amazing visuals and FDE's. They will have to work with third party developers or design features in the sim for a well thought out ATC/AI system. X-Plane could easily corner the market with ATC/AI features like holding patterns, weather avoidance, traffic separation, routes based on real world airlines, and proper separation in and out of airports. X-Plane could be amazing in this area as from what I can see that's all that's left at this point. They blew it out the water with visuals. We all should push for this instead of excusing the sim's shortcomings away. From there LM will have to figure something out on their end to compete. The result is a very bright future for our hobby...

[mwilk 1,106]

Dillon,

           While I agree with you about XPX and ATC and AI traffic, don't forget that most users of FS9/FSX/P3D are using 3rd party addons for AI and ATC. The problem with XP and AI traffic, from what I've been able to find out, is that XP codes its' traffic differently than FSX. Each AI aircraft is treated as an individual, so you could jump from your primary aircraft and actually fly one of the AI aircraft. This is what's keeping a program like My Traffic from being ported over to XP. I think I read somewhere that VOXATC may be made compatible for XP at some point in the future. We also could use a good weather injection program. Unless LR changes the way AI is handled in XP, it doesn't look like any 3rd party developer is going to tackle this issue.

[Murmur 3,941]

Home based simulation has moved past flying in lonely skies since the release of FS2k2 (November of 2001).

 

You forgot Flight Unlimited 2 (end of 1997)! :smile:

[PCAviator 37]

Well thought out ATC/AI is not copying, it's a basic feature any desktop sim on this level should have (especially modeling general aviation). Heck Falcon 3.0 in the military arena released back in the early 90's had this for it's theater of war operations. Let's not forget EF2000 or Total Air War from DID. No matter how you slice it having more creative features versus lacking in features is always the way to go. Statements like yours is really reaching to look past the apparent holes in this sim (something that needs to be addressed, requested in the year 2014 when I can call up well thought out examples going back to 1993). It's like having a word processor without a spell checker. Once the genie was out the bottle all competition followed suit. No one wanted to hear what direction a specific word processor was going originally. If you want to corner the market you have to not only add features people have come to expect but build on that. To have a home based sim that offers nothing but visuals is mis-leading to anyone interested in real world aviation (the target market of this sim). You can't fly without interacting with other aircraft and ATC in the real world plus you have three home based sims that give you all of this. Why would anyone fool with X-Plane at this point outside of it's core nitch? You can't just fly into an airport without clearance or letting traffic around you know your intentions. If X-Plane was like Aerofly FS I wouldn't say anything but it has always been a rival to the MSFS series. Home based simulation has moved past flying in lonely skies since the release of FS2k2 (November of 2001). X-Plane has now hit prime time visually so making excuses for it does the brand no favors. It's been touted as a trainer over the years and since the next big thing will be P3D v2 geared towards real world training by a major real world aircraft manufacturer X-Plane will need to step up it's game. Microsoft shied away from being a serious simulator even though it was and let X-Plane get recognition by the FAA. That day is gone as LM is going for the training market head on using this community to get their software streamlined. X-Plane can not continue to offer little more than amazing visuals and FDE's. They will have to work with third party developers or design features in the sim for a well thought out ATC/AI system. X-Plane could easily corner the market with ATC/AI features like holding patterns, weather avoidance, traffic separation, routes based on real world airlines, and proper separation in and out of airports. X-Plane could be amazing in this area as from what I can see that's all that's left at this point. They blew it out the water with visuals. We all should push for this instead of excusing the sim's shortcomings away. From there LM will have to figure something out on their end to compete. The result is a very bright future for our hobby...

 

Hi Dillon,

 

Perhaps you took my comments the wrong way. Perhaps I wrote them in the wrong style or mindset. Or perhaps I read your previous comment the wrong way. No worries mate, not trying to start a fight Nor am I excusing anything for X-Plane. I don't need to do that. It is not my product or project at all. I agree that it would be great to see AI and ATC in the sim. I was just trying to explain a reason to perhaps why we haven't seen it in X-Plane so far. As far as I know from watching the interviews with Austin, he is not terribly interested in competing with the other sims, nor trying to blitz the market and get rich from it, although he has done very well for himself from X-Plane so far!

 

So while I agree 100% it would be fantastic to have AI/ATC like the "competitors", this may not eventuate unless Austin and the team have a change of goals or direction in the sim. Let's hope they do, for us simmer's sake hey?

[tttocs 301]

Ahem... Back to the images - wonderful stuff Uwe.  But you had me at the Mooooo. :lol: .

 

Scott

[Guest Mik75]

For some people, some features are more important than for others! ;-) I really don't care for AI traffic that much, in FSX I'm using MyTraffic 2013 with very low settings. Most of the time I fly online, using Squawbox, and depending on the time of day, and the place I chose to fly, I have nice traffic going on around me, even in XPX! I am totally fine with that. We shouldn't compare X-Plane and MSFS too much. Many things in X-Plane are based on a philosophy, and I doubt that LR would change them, just to become more competitive.

XPX isn't FSX, and that's a fact I truly love, to be honest! ;-)

[Dillon 2,197]

For some people, some features are more important than for others! ;-) I really don't care for AI traffic that much, in FSX I'm using MyTraffic 2013 with very low settings. Most of the time I fly online, using Squawbox, and depending on the time of day, and the place I chose to fly, I have nice traffic going on around me, even in XPX! I am totally fine with that. We shouldn't compare X-Plane and MSFS too much. Many things in X-Plane are based on a philosophy, and I doubt that LR would change them, just to become more competitive.XPX isn't FSX, and that's a fact I truly love, to be honest! ;-)

 

Again it's not about competition more so than a standard at this point. You can fly with AI/ATC turned off if you like but to not have the option programmed into a Sim on this level at all is wrong. If Austin wants to be a Pre-Madonna that's fine but with the uncertainty of future platforms for us to build on I would hope he'd want to make his effort the best it could be. If he can evolve his graphic engine over the years it's not too much to ask to update other features. If it's about ego trippen and isolation against the competition let the code stay the way it was two versions ago looking worse than FS2000. If he's going to be in the game, be in the game...

[gheeD 62]

Well, at this point i'd like to point that there IS AI and ATC system in Xplane. I wonder how many people arguing here have even tried it? I personally haven't because since FSX I learned that if i want to practice realworld atc/ other airplane communications online atc systems are the ONLY realistic way to go to practice that.

[Dillon 2,197]

Well, at this point i'd like to point that there IS AI and ATC system in Xplane. I wonder how many people arguing here have even tried it? I personally haven't because since FSX I learned that if i want to practice realworld atc/ other airplane communications online atc systems are the ONLY realistic way to go to practice that.

 

That's the most creative dodge of addressing/discussing a valid issue I've yet seen. The current engine in XPlane is lacking so much it's not worth putting it in same sentence as the MSFS series has and yes I've tried it...

[gheeD 62]

It wasn't a dodge, but a simple statement. 

 

Now as far as the argument goes, I don't think it's worth pursuing. There's a barebones version of the ATC that currently mainly has 1 simple mission: to control the AI aircraft around you. that's what Ben has stated, here and here.

 

One thing X-plane does have that FSX doesn't is developers. FSX is finite in its possibilities and capability, but X-plane isn't. They keep enhancing the flying experience every patch.