Real world 10+ years behind VATSIM?

[Jeff Nielsen 1,385]

Is it just me or didn't we start doing this some 10 years ago on VATSIM:

 

http://www.nbaa.org/ops/cns/pbn/climb-via/20140224-nbaa-climb-via-training-presentation-addresses-upcoming-phraseology-changes.php

 

Maybe not the exact phraseology, but the same principle.

[hopskip 253]

Similar principle, but for the whole "cross [place] at [altitude]" bit which is technically required still. ie "Descend via the SADDE6 arrival, (to) cross SADDE at 12,000ft".

 

At this stage the mentioning of 12000ft is still a requirement.

 

I have not heard a "Climb via the SID" before though.

 

Speed restrictions being part of a SID or STAR however have been part of SID/STARs ever since RNAV though, and it's usually not mentioned unless ATC wants to change the restriction, otherwise the omission of any speed control suggests the requirement to keep to the speeds in the procedure. The FMC of any modern jet airliner will generally ensure the speedbug will self-set (and autothrottle will maintain said speed) where equipped.

 

I have seen plenty of these, Maintain 180 knots to xthousand feet. cross waypoint at 220kts, aircraft landing east cross PLACE at 14,000ft, 250kts. and so on. There's never really been any doubt that if there is a speed restriction in the procedure, you should be complying with it.

 

The only big difference is climbing without a direct clearance.

 

ie: SID says climb to 6000ft and level off till passing (waypoint or DME or something).
If you get to that DME and haven't heard anything from ATC, it's usually understood you remain at the last cleared altitude, necessitating ATC intervention "At PLACE climb flight level bla bla." or "callsign, climb flight level bla bla".

 

That said, if I ever recieved a "Callsign, climb via the SID, then maintain FL330" I'd just stick my MCP to FL330, and let the VNAV do the rest (including potentially levelling off at 6000ft etc).

 

If I recieved clearance to "Cancel SID, climb FL 330" I'd potentially set FL330 on the MCP and set FL-CH, or remove all climb restrictions in the FMC legs/vnav page.

 

Unfortunatley, that makes "Callsign, climb FL330" turn into "should we use the VNAV unchanged and level off as per the SID or not?"
 

In the current way of things, it would mean remain with any SID restrictions until they are implicitly cancelled by ATC either via cancellation of the SID, direct instruction to disregard vertical profile, or to expedite climb and/or "climb immediately to" (which to my head means FL-CH open climb, not FMC deleting restrictions time)..

Edited February 25, 2014 by hopskip

[KevinAu 441]

No, ATC here in the US is not required to say an altitude if you are cleared to 'descend via...' Unless the controller wants you to cross a fix at an altitude different than the published altitude, there is no need for them to say an altitude since it is implicit on the chart and by the 'descend via' clearance. Of course, just as a computer tech's first question should be 'is the device plugged in' one should understand 'descend via' clearances are only used with OPDs and profile descent type arrivals where the crossing restrictions are stated as 'Cross at...' vice 'Expect to cross at...' Arrivals that have restrictions stated as 'Expect' still require ATC to say the altitude to cross the fix at.

 

The 'Climb via...' clearances have been in use since at least early 2013. I know I got them out of Denver at that time and my company had already issued us plenty of training bulletins on the then new phraseology. If they say 'So-n-so, climb and maintain FL330,' there should be no doubt about what to do. You cancel the restrictions and climb unrestricted to FL330. The meaning of 'climb/descend and maintain' has not changed in the US, it still means that any intervening restrictions are cancelled.

[fluffyflops 1,846]

shame the real world has had icao standard flightplans for many years, although the american controllers dont have a clue what DCT means or N0490F330 ....

 

Shame vatsim make you contact a controller at 30w half way across the atlantic, or make you fly track A at 0200z...

[hopskip 253]

shame the real world has had icao standard flightplans for many years, although the american controllers dont have a clue what DCT means or N0490F330 ....

 

Shame vatsim make you contact a controller at 30w half way across the atlantic, or make you fly track A at 0200z...

 

I'm sure they know "what it means". It just doesn't apply in their own airspace. Just like I know what "Decend to 3 hundred metres, QFE 822" means, but it's not something I would ever expect to hear outside China and the ex USSR/CIS states.

 

Not sure what you mean by Vatsim "Making" you contact a controller at 30W halfway across the atlantic either. If there is a controller online controlling airspace that you are in, you should be monitoring that frequency. If there isn't anyone online because funny enough, people don't get paid to play on Vatsim, then you can't contact a controller that isn't there. Because talking to yourself is strange.

 

I fly several trans atlantic crossings on Vatsim every year, sometimes several in a single month. I've never been made to fly via track A if I didn't file it. Not sure why I'd be flying it at 0200z either. I don't think Vatsim can come to my house and force me to wake up in the middle of the night and fly a trans atlantic without pay.

[Dave_YVR 968]

 

 

dont have a clue what DCT means

 

 It means to most North American controllers that its a waste of space having it in a route.

Dumbfounded that they still see it from time to time most likely.