Soaring in FSX, with ASN + CumulusX!...

[Guest Flyer10]

For anyone interested, I am avid cross-country glider pilot. Now there are much more accomplished glider pilots than me. (No there isn't I'm the best :lol:) but I am in the position to make a comparison between Real soaring and simulators. I tried SW a long time ago but I just found it unrealistic and uncompelling but I am intrigued, Jcomm, a fellow glider pilot that you prefer it so I will have to try to dig it up and try again. You are unique among other glider pilots that I have spoken to in that you prefer SW to condor.

 

If you want to try condor there are some thing that you should know about it. First it is a DX7 application and it shows its age with some sceneries. However there are new sceneries being developed all the time and they are free. There is a huge and very helpful to new comers online community and tons of online competitions. Soaring is a sport and there are many different types of races and that is essentially what competitive glider pilots do; they race. (they also compete in aerobatics) Racing gliders is a black art. :lol:  it is filled with endless nuance and subtleties. The full title of condor is Condor-The Competition Soaring Simulator.

 

IMO Condor does a remarkable job capturing this. I think its one of these things where the expectation of what was possible to achieve was X but when they finished developing it, the reality of it was 10 times X. What I mean by that is that if you setout to capture the nuance and subtilties  in code you probably couldn't do it but like magic it just seemed to find its own way in there :smile:

 

 

 

Here is where you will find it:

http://www.condorsoaring.com/

 

You will also want to download Condor Server List which lists the current online races and there are plenty of them. Be warned thought the majority of competitors are real world glider pilots so don't expect to be competitive;

http://software.hitziger.net/index.php?show=programs&nr=5

 

Here are some useful Condor Links:

 

http://www.virtualsoaring.eu/download

http://www.gliderracing.com/pub/Default.aspx

 

You will want team speak too.

 

I would recommend a Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 Joystick.

Saitek rudder peddles and a Saitek X52 throttle for Spoiler/Airbrake control.

 

You can find hundreds of free addons and sceneries at Condor Club:

http://www.condor-club.eu/home/1/

 

Be careful though if you are of delicate disposition if you google Condor Club there is a house of ill repute in San Francisco by the same name. As a flying Gentleman I had to poke my eye's out after seeing that web-site :lol:

 

Basically, in soaring a task is set that is typically 200 to 300km. The course is usually a triangle and you land at the same field you took off from. The idea is to complete the course as quickly as possible. The gliders are usually in a  gaggle or two near the start as the start clock counts down. There is a maximum start height and it is common to start from cloud base and dive to arrive at the start line at the maximum height and then once over the start line to climb until you slow down to your cruising speed. Moderns gliders VNE can be over 300kph! You can learn MacCready theory very nicely in Condor which is all about determining the best speed to fly between thermals for given conditions!

 

Once you are over the start and heading for the first turn point perhaps over 100km away you are losing altitude at perhaps a glide ratio of 30:1. You're not going to make it! You are looking for cumulus clouds which mark rising air within 15 degrees of your track or a close by ridge that runs no more than 15 degrees of parallel with your track with the wind blowing sufficiently strong enough and perpendicular enough  to it to generate lift along its length. The best tasks have a combination of both and perhaps some wave in the mix too!

 

Not all of those clouds work but the trained and experience eye see's a lot in Cumulus! They cycle! In reality a glider pilot will head for a wisp in the distance and by the time they get there it is a fully formed Cumulus. make a bad choice and you get there to soon and have to what for the lift to reach full strength or worse still the cloud is already dead. Condor simulates this cycle very well.

 

Thermals tend to be wide and weak near the bottom and strong and narrow higher up in what is called the working band and they tend to weaken at cloud base. They also tilt down wind. Think leaning tower of Pizza! So the lift half way between the ground and the cloud will be up wind of the cloud. Condor simulates this very well. Take a look at the schematic thermals in FSX they are nothing like this. They are horrible without features at all.

 

I typically fly a Stardard Jantar 2 in real life and there is a standard Jantar in Condor. I personally finds them similar enough to be believable and see very obvious difference between the gliders in condor although I could not speak to the accuracy of the other models (haven't flown a k13 in 25 year) other pilots who have rarely point out anything other than minor inaccuracies.

 

Overall I would be very surprised if anyone who gave this a serious shoot and learned enough to complete even a 100km task did not find themselves sitting in a real 2 seater for an introductory lesson (not a joy ride) within a year it is so compelling.

 

Here is a great time laps video of soaring condition changing throughout the day.

As the sun gets higher the gound gets hotter and the thermals become stronger making bigger and bigger Cu.

Note the life cycle of a the cu. They start as a wisp and ballon in a fully blown Cu and then disappear in a haze.

In the summer sitting on a patio with friends they love to ask me "is that spot there a cloud starting or dying?"

To there amazement I get it right virtually everytime. It takes about 90 seconds to confirm the answer. And then they start slapping me and throwing beer at me and accusing me of turning to the dark side! :Devil:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNfuZbH42Pw

 

And The last thing is this video. It is probably the best condor Video on YouTube and really shows of the condor magic despite being

low res.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjKD37GjcD4

 

 

I have to be completely blunt: There is nothing in the FS world that I have ever seen that comes even remotely close to Condor. Even Cumulus X Pales in comparison.

 

I am now having some success with realistic thermals generated by ASN in P3DV2 and I assume it does the same in FSX but more experimentation is required but to all intent and purpose they are there!

[lodestar]

Wow, i saved your post on my PC, thanks a lot for that! You gave us great info, utilities, websites, and a free lesson about competitions.

 

 

 

Overall I would be very surprised if anyone who gave this a serious shoot and learned enough to complete even a 100km task did not find themselves sitting in a real 2 seater for an introductory lesson (not a joy ride) within a year it is so compelling

 

200nm task completed last week, introductory lesson booked for beggining of May  :lol:

 

 

 

There is nothing in the FS world that I have ever seen that comes even remotely close to Condor

 

+1000

 

May i ask you about your flight control settings? I mean non-linearity and ratio settings, i have it for all flight controls at medium. But i have no idea about how gliders respond to flight controls. Default settings were a way too sensitive. I know there is a difference between joysticks, but i would like to know your settings now i have learned that you are the best glider pilot  :lol:

 

Thanks again

[jcomm]

Excellent introduction to Condor Flyer10!  You made me consider re-installing it :-) I saved your post - lot's of great info and links there!  Thanks!!!!

 

Regarding SW, the latest version that you will get if you donload it now from their server, already has some sort of wave, you do have flutter, although not with the same visual effects on Condor, etc...

 

Concentrate on the Antares (well, I never flew one IRL :-( )  and on the Grob, but there's also a very good Astir Club.

 

I find the effects of entering / centering a thermal more close to real in SW than in Condor. The same goes for turbulence in mountain areas, and overall feel of flight / flight dynamics.

Of course SW can't compare in terms of what you can use to create challenging races, and other tasks...

 

Having flown mainly across the Iberian Peninsula, mostly in Portugal, there weren't many sceneries for my area by that time, but things may have changed ( ? )

 

For online flight Condor certainly has a huge community, and a load of available servers, something we never really had in SW.

 

We are all still waiting for SW 2 and Condor 2.... Actually, I was waiting for the SW release when Condor was released first in 2006, and bought it first. Only one year latter did I buy SW, but soon fell in love with it. By that time there were some active servers for online tasks in SW...

[Guest Flyer10]

May i ask you about your flight control settings? I mean non-linearity and ratio settings, i have it for all flight controls at medium. But i have no idea about how gliders respond to flight controls. Default settings were a way too sensitive

 

I don't even recall the last time I looked at the input tab but I had a look and here is what its is set too.

 

Aileron

 

Non linearity: All the way to the left

Ratio: In the Middle

 

Stick centers with hand off and force feedback Checked.

All other check boxes empty

 

Stick force simulation: just left of center.

 

Elevator

 

Same as Aileron!

 

rudder

 

Non Linearity: just left of center

Ratio: In the Middle

 

I don't have much experience of flying anything else but others tell me that glider generally respond quickly by comparison for Pitch and despite the long wings they can also be snappy rollers and that is my experience in the Jantar pulling up and banking hard into thermals

 

I think you really want a forced feedback stick or at least a centering spring to offer some resistance in the stick.

 

In realty glider controls require a more deft touch than GA plans I often hear power pilots taking the conversion course expressing amazement at how sensitive the controls are. Particularly the rudder. We also tell power pilots taking the conversion we will teach them what feet are for! :lol:

 

Regarding SW, the latest version that you will get if you donload it now from their server, already has some sort of wave, you do have flutter, although not with the same visual effects on Condor, etc...

 

I am downloading it right now :lol:

 

Glad you guys enjoyed the post also happy to promote soaring

[Guest Flyer10]

Jcomm - I just spent about 1/2 an hour flying around in the Grob in Silent Wings and I have to tell you I was very pleasantly surprised! It appear to have come along way since the last time I tried it a few years ago. I used the Norway demo scenery and I found the ridge lift at 15knots very believable. I see you point about thermal entry the vario behavior is convincing. the GUI seems quite different to what I remember too. The demo last until April 4th so I have until then to play with it. Shame they only allow use of the Grob in the demo. I have to take issue with the clouds thought. A lot of them keep instantiously switching size sometimes from small to large. So that's a bug! I run very well on maximum graphics setting at 60FPS. It is far better than I remember it being :smile:

[jcomm]

A lot of them keep instantiously switching size sometimes from small to large. So that's a bug! I run very well on maximum graphics setting at 60FPS. It is far better than I remember it being

 

Yes, specially after watching that great Condor video, showing a "fast day" in the skies of Condor Soaring, and knowing that, contrarily to SW, Condor correctly calculates the Sun rise / set times and max altitude above the horizon according to the date, while SW uses a fixed north latitude reference, I tend to be more tempted to re install Condor... I still have the ortiginal installer, and the Alps scenery. Until recently I had my account at Condorworld and Condor-club active.... I'll try to DL some scenery updates too :-)

[Guest Flyer10]

Well have fun and get involved in an online contest.

It much more fun that way.

 

Here is real Cu time laps and I think it really shows how well they did it in Condor :smile:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsa7x8JsFx4