"Censorship" and Support - a Developer's viewpoint

[michal 44]

>All I see here.......... is a "whining" simmer, not the>developer..>>Sorry! But that's how I read it....And me too ...Michael J.http://www.reality-xp.com/community/nr/rsc/rxp-higher.jpg

[Guest allcott]

A better example of each side not being able to see the others point I cannot think of, at this moment.But, the continuing presence of the thread has helped reasonable customers decide on this particular issue. And I side with Mr Adamson. Whining simmer. So you see, the system works!Allcott

[1mikel151 71]

Well said Robert!Well I for one agree with the original post by Robert, maybe in part because I am the customer service industry and of late many consumers seem to have become whiny, ungrateful, demanding idiots, no matter what industry or perhaps because I was brought up to treat others as you want to be treated, regardless, I don't see anything wrong with Roberts post. If rude and ill mannered bahavior and losers posting accusations (whether true or untrue) on a "PRIVATE" forum is part of the deal to offer a product for a fee, then I would have no objection if you guys all quite, in fact I would understand.This debate will always go one since so many things influence a persons behavior and thoughts on how to act, while we may see a users post as rude or out of line, he may very well be convinced (in his own little mind) that there is nothing wrong with being rude and disrespectful, so in that context, there is no changing that.As far as "expecting" updates, if the product you bought was for FS2002, a designer has no obligation whatsoever to provide an update for another sim, for free even, plain and simple, the fact that many have is a plus, which led many of the whiners to expect it. I wish MS had used a new engine with all new code, so all this could be avoided (but then they would find something else to whine about), matter of fact, why don't we just do away with freeware and make everything we get payware for a full year, might make some of the users on this forum a little more appreciative of what they have!BTW YES, people DO slam freeware on this forum, seen it many times. Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://mysite.verizon.net/res052cd/mybannercva1.jpgCalVirAir International VAwww.calvirair.comCougar Mountain Helicopters & Aviationwww.cgrmtnhelos.com

[Guest SoarPics]

"As far as "expecting" updates, if the product you bought was for FS2002, a designer has no obligation whatsoever to provide an update for another sim, for free even, plain and simple, the fact that many have is a plus, which led many of the whiners to expect it."For me this is the crux of the matter, Michael. When I received that e-mail from RAS offering the FREE upgrade I saw it for what it was... a gift. And I don't look gift horses in the mouth.Many of the payware products we now fly in FS9 were made and sold for FS2002. I can't demand that those developers now make their products work in FS9. And if they do I accept their gifts and remind myself that I owe them one. I'll buy from them in the future.I agree that too many customers EXPECT their older payware to be updated for FREE. Wish I could get a deal like that on my car, or computer, or TV, or...

[greggerm 312]

>I agree that too many customers EXPECT their older payware to>be updated for FREE. The expectation that any and all payware (and freeware!) products will be made compatable with the next generation of base software is a bad expectation. But there are some situations where this expectation is brought upon the developer...I am not a RAS customer, so I can't weigh in on their operations, but over the past year, MANY 3rd party developers made public announcements that Product X was going to be updated for FS2004. In many cases, new customers purchased the previous sim's version because they now knew it was going to work with the new version (after a patch or free update).As we've seen, the conversion process to FS2004 has been VERY fast for some, and very slow for others. Personally, I've been left waiting for updates to some of my favorite aircraft, as their first attempts at updates are now legendary in their failure.This wait is especially irritating to the folks who purchased the product based on the announced compatibility with FS2004. Basing your purchase on an upgrade may be an unsafe practice by the consumer, but a publisher's announcement of planned compatability goes a long way to assure a skeptical shopper of a safe purchase in this world of incompatable software, hardware, and personalities. Product patch announcements drive sales. And if they happened to drive YOU to make the purchase, I think you are justified in expecting a timely return on that claim, or at least proactive messages from the publisher. If no claim was made, and you're raising a stink, well... it's not the publisher who stinks. -Greg

[Guest Ken_Salter]

I was debating whether or not to post something here, but I'm traveling right now and sitting in a hotel room bored, so here goes:Just a note on forum administration:Personally, I do not like to lock or delete posts, and especially do not like to ban users (despite some people's opinions). Though this will be done when needed.If an issue is raised in a post, I like to see both sides posted. I do this because I am usually not aware of what is "truth". For the most part, the forum system works - other users will post and the issue is aired out.And I will let the post stay so that everyone can read the post and decide for themselves.This is, of course, assuming that the posts abide by the Rules of the Forum.When posts violate the Rules of the Forum, then those posts are give up the right to exist ;-) Continued posts by a user that violate the Rules of the Forum, and the user gives up the right to exist in this forum community.As far as where a post resides, it is up to the descretion of the moderators (myself included) whether or not to move the post. If some people don't like how we do this, oh well.As mentioned above, everyone's lives would be a lot easier if common decency and good manners were observed in all situations. Realizing that we do not live in a utopia, we will have to endure.Thank you and good night.

[robert young 2,897]

HI Ken,You do have a difficult job, and I think you and the rest of the Avsim team do it very well indeed.I think there is some support for the notion of putting real names to all posts, but I also recognise that this may drive some people away, so I do understand that it may be a practical impossibility.Enjoy the rest of your trip!With Kind Regards,Rob

[Guest Ken_Salter]

You know that AVSim tried this at one time, but there were many issues, not the least of which was how to verify a real name. We do require people to use a non-freebie email address to sign up. I think this is the best that can be done with such a large and active forum.Thanks for the good words!

[Guest SlimDady]

Will posting your real name make peoples views change, or make people more affraid to voice what they feel?Evan Lask..... feels no different to me, now you can find where i live and come beat me because i made you mad. send me mail, call me???The internet is still very impersonal either way you look at it. Even if people use real names.

[Shaka 2]

>But those entirely untrue posts are in the forums and everyone>can see them. I agree that developers have a responsibility>towards their customers, but equally users have a>responsibility not to post untrue, knee-jerk allegations which>give an impression to others that is wholly unreasonable and>bordering on the libellous. I note that even when these postsI totally agree with everything you said. I come to the AVSIM forums because there's a huge amount of knowledge in here. 99% of the posters are extremely helpful, and the Scenery Design forum in particular has a first-class crowd. When I see people complaining about being "censored", I take it with a grain of salt, since I've seen so many of those rants about poor service, crappy flight models, etc. I own some payware that I think is outstanding, and well worth the money. When I started seeing other people trashing it, I couldn't believe it. So now, I ignore most of those posts. Maybe if enough of us start to ignore them, instead of encouraging them, then they will go away.This isn't restricted to payware. Think of the name "Mike Stone", and you know that the man has suffered as much abuse as anyone. This blows me away, since he is giving it away free. I don't know why anyone would complain - if you don't like it, don't use it.Finally, I want to remind everyone that there are completely free, unmoderated forums out there. Just check out the internet newsgroups like comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flightsim or alt.games.microsoft.flight.sim . There's a reason I don't go to these forums. Once you get past the porn ads, and pyramid-scheme crap (remember - unmoderated) there really isn't the experience that we have here in our little community. It's just a lot of people exercising their free speech. I'd rather follow the rules and stay here.- Martin

[robert young 2,897]

Hi Martin,Being a keen fan of Grand Prix Legends I used to frequent some of the more way out racing forums in order to pick up tips and info. I think things have improved now, but in those days the average exchange about an addon or GPL utility would nearly always collapse into the cliched but time honoured, mature and intelligent example of free speech thus:Poster A: "XXX rocks"Poster B: "How can you say that - XXX sucks"A: "No Man - You Suck!"B: "You're a W*****"A: "Yeah and you're a M***** F****"B: Etc etc etcIf Avsim had no moderator I feel it would only be a matter of time.....Kind Regards,Rob Young

[N400QW 205]

Couldn't agree more with not only Rob but others assesment of people's attitudes now days.Many of us can actually recall a time when folks were a bit more gentile, and a LOT less ill mannered:-)To avoid this sad state of affairs we have provided our own support forums and implemented a "no tolerence" policy for these attitudes.The basis for our policy is quite simple:-)1. We provide the forums for Support of our products.2. We provide an atmosphere where folks can receive support.3. We will not allow #1 and #2 to be changed for people with bad attitudes:-)

[Cloud9 0]

All,My e-mail address had changed last year and so I never got a notification from RAS. I needed the update of the SF.260 aircraft. No big deal since it was my responsibility to contact RAS to get the update. I did. I got a response back from Rob in less than 1 hour!!! I was expecting a few days! I downloaded the update, installed it without any issues, and have been enjoying the SF260 ever since! The aircraft is outstanding! Even though I was wondering what was taking so long in developing the update, it was well worth the wait, well worth it indeed! Thank you Rob (and the rest of RAS) for the very quick reply and for the SF260 - a professional high-quality, reliable, and fun product to use in FS2004!David

[robert young 2,897]

Thank you David. We are pretty certain that virtually 100% of genuine customers have now got their update, although the total number of update links sent by request far exceeds the number matching on our database and this suggests strongly that many requests were from bogus customers, some of whom forged receipts or personal info, which is why we had to call a time limit. But since almost everyone is now served, the time limit, from the customer point of view, is now a non-issue.The tiny handful of "complaints" about the time limit have to my knowledge all come from people who actually do have the update safely on their hard drives - so I am unsure as to their motives for complaining.Regarding the time taken for the update to be developed, you can put that down to an entirely new Gmax model, brand new textures, and a flight model which had to be radically re-designed to fit with FS9's new code. I'm afraid that couldn't be done overnight!Kind Regards,Rob Young

[Guest yarvelling]

I'd just like to add a quick comment here too.....I agree with Rob that he and other developers should not have to be subjected to public 'abuse' in forums such as these. I have read many such posts and recall the incidents that have been brought up. Many posts of this nature are obviously based on the writers feelings more than the facts and so get blown out of proportion, and the truth gets buried. This then leaves other readers to believe that the developer in question is unreliable, a producer of shoddy goods, etc, especially if the threads get locked and he can no longer defend himself.It's also worth pointing out that anyone in business, especially a retailer, is susceptible to that old 'word of mouth' routine, and it is a truth that bad comments spread far faster than the good comments, and so for no justifiable reason a developer such as Rob could get publicly shunned by many who have no knowledge of why they shun him, other than "well, my mate told me they were crap, so....".I believe that Rob expressed his opinions very well in the original post, as did the other contributing developers who took the time to reply, and that we, as potential customers and FS users, should give a little more respect, rather than publicly having them 'stoned to death' in these forums...Ha ha...especialy if it's US that have caused the problem in the first place!!! Edited 'cause I forgot to include my real name: Steve Wild