Help with sids and stars

[ap1 16]

I'm a little confused with how to fly some sids and stars in radar contact.  I've seen some sids that say to expect radar vectors and some stars that use radar vectors too.  How would these types of sids and stars work in radar contact?  For example take a look at the loop departure out of klax.  It says to depart heading 250 degrees and then expect vectors back to lax vor.  I'm using default gps with radar contact so how would set up that flight plan in the flight planner?  And how would radar contact handle this departure?  Now take a look at the Arlin three arrival in phoniex.  It says after tukee intersection to expect radar vectors for 26 or 25 runways.  I know radar contact switches you to approach at 40 miles so how could you fly the star with no vectors.  The IAF for 26 is at Cerrun and I don 'to know if you can go directly from tukee to Cerrun and then onto the approach.  Can you please explain this since I really don't know how to fly these certain types of sids or stars?  And could you please explain how to fly stars that end at vors either at the airport or close to the airport? I have read the manual but I don't think it explained how to fly these types of sids or stars.  Thanks so much in advance.

[twharrell 38]

It's been a while since I have used RC4 (I still think it's the best ATC addon), but you can set RC4 to essentially "ignore" any waypoint in the first 30 miles (I think), essentially making your first enroute waypoint the first one that RC4 recognizes. That way if you are flying an RNAV departure or any other SD, you can fly it as depicted without the controller getting flustered.  Or, for non RNAV SDs just include all the waypoints depicted on the SD in your flight plan. As for SD's with radar vectors, just fly the SD as depicted on your chart, then request direct to the waypoint you are supposed to get vectors for.

 

As for STARs, when I contact approach, I request the full instrument procedure, that way I can fly the STAR as charted and then will essentially vector myself to the final approach course (if necessary). At that point, approach will have you contact tower.

 

Others may have more elegant solutions but this is what I do and it works for me. 

 

Todd 

[ap1 16]

OK I understand some of that.  Let's say I was flying the Loop departure out of KLAX.  It says to takeoff fly heading 250 and then receive radar vectors back to LAX VOR.  If I put the LAX VOR in the flight planner I would probably cross it after takeoff and it would disappear on the GPS and probably radar contact at least I think that's what it does.  Would It still be possible to still request direct to the LAX VOR or would I not be able to do this?  I hope what I said makes somewhat sense LOL.

[twharrell 38]

If you fly over the LAX VOR and that waypoint is in the flightplan you loaded into RC4, then RC4 should cycle to your next waypoint (you'll see it in the RC4 window). If you fly past the waypoint, and RC4 tries to vector you back to LAX, just request direct to your next waypoint.

 

Todd

[ap1 16]

Ok I'll see if that works thanks again.

[ronzie 21]

I generated a plan using fsbuild24 (LOOP6 in AIRAC APR2013) from KLAX to KLAS for test. In that the first waypoint listed was LAX VOR at 7 nm out. Therefore if included, RC would consider this a published departure procedure (first waypoint within 30 nm) and you would be expected to navigate on your own for this distance crossing LAX within a two mile radius - no vectors from RC - and then continuing on lining yourself up with the first waypoint beyond 30 nm from LAX.

 

I next looked at the LOOP6 SID for the same AIRAC in the PMDG B737NG series FMC terminal database. Here are its instructions to the aircraft:

 

SID LOOP6
 RNW 24L HDG 249 UNTIL 625 HDG 250 INTERCEPT RADIAL 160 FROM FIX SMO HDG 250 VECTORS TURN LEFT DIRECT FIX LAX AT OR ABOVE 10000 FIX KEGGS AT OR ABOVE 13000 FIX COOPP AT OR ABOVE 15000 FIX DAG

 

If you use an aircraft model with an FMC you would select that SID and guide the aircraft manually using the MCP Heading control or try to let the LNAV fly it. The aircraft will start turning left toward LAX at the SMO  radial 160 which might show on your nav display. The actual distance flying around this loop from R24L or other one is more than 30 miles (turning at DME15 LAX)) so you would have plenty of time to meet the crossing restrictions as well. The SID checkpoints will be on your nav display to accomplish this.

 

Hopefully you are using a TCAS display on your nav display to watch out for other traffic.

 

I'll later try loading this SID into the B737 to check its nav display.

[ap1 16]

Ronzi I'm not using any FMC.  I'm using the default 737 in FSX.

[ronzie 21]

Just use the nav display and using the AP heading on the MCP just turn appropriately to the LAX VOR. If on the RC status window use the bearings on it to turn toward it. The 737 has a maximum bank but you need to start it on the turn. The flight plan has only seven miles direct but just operate according to the SID instructions and you'll have lots of distance to turn and gain altitude. Have the LAX and SMO tuned in for your nav display and use LAX DME and direction and the SMO radial shown on whatever instruments they are displayed on such as an ADI. Once at LAX VOR then the rest of the waypoints if in the plan make it routine if the FSX planner allows these SID waypoints to be entered.

 

For use with the default aircraft I highly recommend you consider an AIRAC updatable flight planner such as FSBuild 2.4, Flight Sim Commander, etc., so it should accept the SID waypoints from modern charts. They might not be in FSX's database. This way they should display on whatever nav display you have taking the coordinates and ident from the flight plan when you import the FSX plan into your aircraft panel instruments.

 

Some terminal databases especially for Europe have what are called soft waypoints which are local to the airport and determine a path to follow similar to the KLAX loop. They mark turning points. They are marked like D001, etc. For KLAX I do not see these in FSBuild as soft waypoints.

 

For the KLAX LOOP just follow the instructions and the dotted loop paths on the chart.

 

KLAX to KLAS@37000 (Alt1- , Alt2-) / LAX.KEGGS.COOPP.DAG.CLARR.SKEBR.ISSAR.IPUMY.BLD. *RVSM

 

appears in the RC preflight plan window looking at the FSBuild plan I created and posted here.

 

One RC option is on the Controller screen to engage the NOTAMS control which adds some flexibility. Now for this LOOP SID, the Controller Screen only shows the Alt Restriction or no Alt Restriction options because it sees the first waypoint, LAX VOR as within 30 nm meaning you are navigating a published route without vectors. The No Dep Procedure is grayed out meaning vectors are not available.

 

The other end (arrival) works differently. Unless you take action at about 35 nm out approach will assign a runway and start issuing vectors breaking out of the STAR or approach. You can then select the IAP option to navigate on your own. Using the NOTAMS option again gets you flexibility on RC's heading and altitude deviation limits (but not on crossing restrictions).

 

In FSBuiild it lets me define a custom waypoint once I turn on the build from route grid option. I inserted a line and gave an ident, longitude and latitude. The coordinates are not correct but look at the D001 section here:

 

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="Windows-1252"?>

<SimBase.Document Type="AceXML" version="1,0">
    <Descr>AceXML Document</Descr>
    <FlightPlan.FlightPlan>
        <Title>KLAX to KLAS</Title>
        <FPType>IFR</FPType>
        <RouteType>HighAlt</RouteType>
        <CruisingAlt>37000</CruisingAlt>
        <DepartureID>KLAX</DepartureID>
        <DepartureLLA>N33° 56' 32.00" , W118° 24' 29.00",</DepartureLLA>
        <DestinationID>KLAS</DestinationID>
        <DestinationLLA>N36° 04' 48.00" , W115° 09' 08.00",</DestinationLLA>
        <Descr>KLAX, KLAS</Descr>
        <DeparturePosition>25R</DeparturePosition>
        <DepartureName>LOS_ANGELES_INTL</DepartureName>
        <DestinationName>LAS_VEGAS/MC_CARRAN_INTL</DestinationName>
        <AppVersion>
            <AppVersionMajor>10</AppVersionMajor>
            <AppVersionBuild>60905</AppVersionBuild>
        </AppVersion>
        <ATCWaypoint id="KLAX">
             <ATCWaypointType>Airport</ATCWaypointType>
             <WorldPosition>N33° 56' 32.00",W118° 24' 29.00",</WorldPosition>
             <ICAO>
                 <ICAOIdent>KLAX</ICAOIdent>
             </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
        <ATCWaypoint id="D001">
             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>
             <WorldPosition>N33° 56' 10.00",W118° 25' 00.00",</WorldPosition>
             <ICAO>
                 <ICAOIdent>D001</ICAOIdent>
             </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
        <ATCWaypoint id="LAX">
             <ATCWaypointType>VOR</ATCWaypointType>
             <WorldPosition>N33° 56' 00.00",W118° 25' 56.00",</WorldPosition>
             <ICAO>
                 <ICAOIdent>LAX</ICAOIdent>
             </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>

 

That's some work but if you take off using LOOP7 a lot it might be worth it if you do not have an aircraft capable of AIRAC terminal procedures.

 

The FAA charts do not have a latitude/longitude coordinate grid. Some European ones do.

 

For the US VFR sectionals are available freeware on line so you can look at LAX and plot your custom local waypoints from those.

 

http://skyvector.com/?ll=33.9424955,-118.408068389&chart=114&zoom=3

 

On this site skyvector.com you can get a sectional:

 

http://skyvector.com/?ll=33.9424955,-118.408068389&chart=114&zoom=3

 

is KLAX. You can zoom with the mouse wheel and drag the map. In the display center you'll see a crosshair and in the upper bar the coordinates of that crosshair are displayed. So drag the map to where you want a custom waypoint at the crosshairs and write them down for a custom waypoint to mark curve turning points. For LOOP 7 I would just add one where on the FAA chart the two dotted teardrop loops converge.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ap1 16]

Ronzi I'm going to try out what you said.  Thanks.