Radar Contact: KSEA and KDFW STAR questions

[ap1 16]

I have some questions on two STARS for these airports.  The STAR for KSEA is the Olympia eight arrival.  Here's the link: http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/SEA/STAR/OLYMPIA+EIGHT/pdf.  After Fourt intersection it says to expect vectors for either landing north or south.  Now the problem I am facing is how would I do this STAR with Radar Contact?  Now the other STAR for KDFW is very similar.  The STAR is called the Glen Rose Nine arrival.  Here's the link: http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/DFW/STAR/GLEN+ROSE+NINE/pdf.  The STAR says if your landing north, after CURLE intersection to expect Radar Vectors.  Now if landing south,  it says after DELMO to head 355 and expect vectors.  So what is the proper way to fly these STARS with Radar Contact?  Thanks very much.

[ronzie 21]

Olympia 8:

 

Turn on the NOTAMS option in the RC Controller page for KSEA so you can deviate if necessary from RC instructions. Looking at charts ILS 16L and 34R we determine that VOR SEA is on the airport. Unfortunately I do not see any distance to the airport from FOURT. Do NOT put KSEA in the plan. The approach charts do give you terrain information. Have those handy for both runway directions.

 

Include all STAR appropriate waypoints (from your arrival direction) to FOURT.

 

Landing south on the 16s, it appears that 340 will get you to a downwind pattern left of 16. IF RC approach starts to vector you to 16s before FOURT continue to FOURT and turn left to 340. If not continue straight until you know which runway is used and turn 340 before acking the first vector. RC should then follow. If RC commands a right turn before you are north of the airport continue heading 340 until the airport is to the 16 thresholds are to the right of you. On your NAV2 you can tune to SEA on NAV2 if you have an RMI on your aircraft to point to the airport. The idea is to force RC into a downwind parallel to the 16s.  The left downwind is safer because of terrain. RC should adjust.

 

Landing north on the 34s if RC does not start vectoring you by FOURT continue straight until it starts. If the 34s are being used RC turn right to 70 until vectoring starts. RC might choose to try to vector you for a left base entry but you want to force close to a straight in or right base entry.

 

Be prepared for a steep descent if necessary and pay attention to approach chart minimums.

 

NOTAMS will give you flexibility to deviate from RC instructions during pre approach and approach.

 

Similar for GLEN-ROSE 9. NOTAMS on preflight.

 

All STAR waypoints in your plan to DELMO. Do not put on field VOR TTT in your plan. Examine the ILS 18 and ILS 34 Approach plates for information. Terrain is not much of a problem.

 

For landing on the 17/18s, if approach has not assigned runway continue to DELMO as CURLE might be too far way before runway assignment. At DELMO if not yet vectored turn to 351 to for downwind vector west of the 17s.

 

For landing on the 34s RC should vector you for base leg to the west of them. If you know you'll be landing to the north, its your option to turn to 010 at CURLE to get a base entry vector for the 35/36s.

 

Your other option for all is to select an IAP for the assigned runway and do your own vectoring to the IAF of the approach plates.

 

In real life protection is needed between KDFW and KDAL. The parallel runways whether to the right of left of the terminals might dictate the downwind side. I don't think RC is that smart at this point.

 

For these airports a TCAS gauge (traffic positions) should be on your panel. You want the NAV overlay type if available. There is one freeware one around.

 

For learning RC you might wish to turn ai very low for these airports if you use an multi-airline ai add-on. Once you are proficient you can battle the ai traffic, but leave some on if you wish.

[ap1 16]

OK..... I guess that makes some sense.  So basically what I can do is let Radar Contact vector me for the runways.  I may use Notams too.  I also have a small problem with a STAR at KLAX. The STAR is the RIVIIR2.  The STAR ends at RIVVIR which is 49 miles from the airport.  Now no vectoring is needed on this STAR.  RIVVIR is the IAF for all runways.  I always decide which runway to land on before hand. The default GPS is out of date with this arrival, so what I will do  is include the corrindates for this arrival.  So is it best to finish the STAR in Radar Contact with RIVVIR and then before on approach just starting the instrument approach to the runway 24R?  Thanks.

[ap1 16]

There is also a STAR for KBUR called the LYNXX eight arrival.  How would this be done?  It says after VNY VOR to expect vectors for the final approach course.  VNY VOR is about 7 miles from the runway.  I don't know how this would be handled with Radar Contact.  Thanks again.

[brucek 38]

Hi ap1,

 

I can't help you with RC, as I don't use it (I just use the default ATC in P3D and cancel IFR when I want to do some "vectoring"). But I am a RL pilot so can maybe help you with what a real vector might sound like.

 

For your example at KBUR: the FAF for the LOC 08 IAP is BUDDE, very close to the VNY VOR. Without any specific knowledge on the KBUR procedures (I don't live in So CA), a typical vector would be to have you on a LOC intercept angle at 30 degrees or less, and have you intercept the LOC at 2-3 miles outside of the FAF (BUDDE).

 

Obviously, following the STAR to VNY would put you in an awkward place to achieve this, so I would imagine that ATC would start you vectoring off the STAR at somewhere like LYNXX, send you further west on a vector then turn you around to eventually be on a 110 heading for the 30 degree intercept to 08.

 

This is just a very glib description of a somewhat generic procedure... obviously keeping you out of the arrivals/departures from KSMO and also away from the big boys inbound on the SADDE arrival to KLAX would be a priority.

 

However, as mentioned by others above, the way that RC handles "vectors" is to basically disconnect you from the "ATC instructions" and monitoring where you are- so you're basically on your own... you are both the pilot and the controller which is tough as it is, and if you didn't have some form of charts to help you know where to go then it's like flying in the dark...

 

I realize I haven't answered your question.... but if you wanted to automate all of this you could get out an IFR-low chart and find some waypoints that you could program into an FMS and/or GPS that would approximate something like how I wrote it above....

 

Thanks, Bruce.

[ap1 16]

Hi Bruce.  I agree that Radar Contact is not 100 percent realistic.  So I guess the way to do those STARS is to basically do it myself.  It would be nice though if Radar Contact could handle all the types of SIDS and STARS.  Thanks.

[ronzie 21]

There is also a STAR for KBUR called the LYNXX eight arrival.  How would this be done?  It says after VNY VOR to expect vectors for the final approach course.  VNY VOR is about 7 miles from the runway.  I don't know how this would be handled with Radar Contact.  Thanks again.

RC will pull you off of the STAR before VNY.

 

Look at the ILS RWY8 chart. Look at both the horizontal and vertical profile. See all the high stuff around the 800 MSL airport?

 

SOCAL would vector you to one of the IAFs. The inbound includes a descending race track pattern you fly like a hold to get you down just a few hundred feet.

 

RC would vector you further out but high starting after JANNY or LAAMB. If you want to follow the complete STAR as instructed this would be an IAP arrivl to do you own navigation. In this case for 8 you would over VNY fly to an outer IAF allowing for your descent to turn inbound following the vertical profile. Again, this is a congested airport area. Runway 15 is a visual approach flying between the peaks. All other runways would be a circling approach off of 8.

[ap1 16]

I guess what I can do for this for airport is not even go to VNY, just go from LYNXX directly to SILEX which is the IAF for 8.  I guess there's only so many options.  Like I said in an above post, it would be better if RC had knowledge of SIDS and STARS and not just get want to start to vector you at 40 miles out.  Thanks for you help. 

[ronzie 21]

One purpose of a STAR is to get all the arrivals as ducks in a row. It is not uncommon for ATC to break you out of the latter part of a STAR and vector you to a merge on final (for a controlled airfield) or to line you up for the IAF of an IAP where no radar is available for the final stages.

 

BTW:

As noted in the RC manual NOTAMS does not relieve you of the altitude crossing restriction of either 11,000 feet (or Flight Level 110 depending on the transition altitude of your airport area) or 12,000 feet (FL120) which occurs about 40 nm out from destination.

 

The other purposes can be for terrain separation in mountainous or hilly areas, protection of nearby airport traffic patterns either vertical, horizontal, or both, and these days for security routing.

[ronzie 21]

Hi ap1,

 

I can't help you with RC, as I don't use it (I just use the default ATC in P3D and cancel IFR when I want to do some "vectoring"). But I am a RL pilot so can maybe help you with what a real vector might sound like.

 

For your example at KBUR: the FAF for the LOC 08 IAP is BUDDE, very close to the VNY VOR. Without any specific knowledge on the KBUR procedures (I don't live in So CA), a typical vector would be to have you on a LOC intercept angle at 30 degrees or less, and have you intercept the LOC at 2-3 miles outside of the FAF (BUDDE).

 

Obviously, following the STAR to VNY would put you in an awkward place to achieve this, so I would imagine that ATC would start you vectoring off the STAR at somewhere like LYNXX, send you further west on a vector then turn you around to eventually be on a 110 heading for the 30 degree intercept to 08.

 

This is just a very glib description of a somewhat generic procedure... obviously keeping you out of the arrivals/departures from KSMO and also away from the big boys inbound on the SADDE arrival to KLAX would be a priority.

 

However, as mentioned by others above, the way that RC handles "vectors" is to basically disconnect you from the "ATC instructions" and monitoring where you are- so you're basically on your own... you are both the pilot and the controller which is tough as it is, and if you didn't have some form of charts to help you know where to go then it's like flying in the dark...

 

I realize I haven't answered your question.... but if you wanted to automate all of this you could get out an IFR-low chart and find some waypoints that you could program into an FMS and/or GPS that would approximate something like how I wrote it above....

 

Thanks, Bruce.

 

Not quite, Bruce:

 

RC ATC does issue command vectors to a final merge unless you request otherwise (request IAP) after accepting the first vector. Under IAP you are on your own until final when you are passed to tower.

 

RC has an internal database of terrain around airports and the calculated MSA is averaged for all quadrants. If you are flying through a valley to get to approach especially an offset approach then following it using a published STAR and IAP is recommended.

 

For KBUR going direct from LYNXX to an IAF might get you close to obstacles.

 

This VFR chart shows why flying close to VNY, then west to an IAF and turning inbound for RWY 8 might be a good idea.

 

http://skyvector.com/?ll=34.200694444,-118.358666667&chart=469&zoom=3

[ap1 16]

Not quite, Bruce:

 

RC ATC does issue command vectors to a final merge unless you request otherwise (request IAP) after accepting the first vector. Under IAP you are on your own until final when you are passed to tower.

 

RC has an internal database of terrain around airports and the calculated MSA is averaged for all quadrants. If you are flying through a valley to get to approach especially an offset approach then following it using a published STAR and IAP is recommended.

 

For KBUR going direct from LYNXX to an IAF might get you close to obstacles.

 

This VFR chart shows why flying close to VNY, then west to an IAF and turning inbound for RWY 8 might be a good idea.

 

http://skyvector.com/?ll=34.200694444,-118.358666667&chart=469&zoom=3

So I guess the way to do it would be to fly over VNY VOR and then south for a few miles then turn into a downwind and try to intercept the FAF at a 30 degree angle.  Would this be OK?  I guess sometimes in RC your going to have to vector yourself occasionally?

[brucek 38]

Not quite, Bruce:

 

RC ATC does issue command vectors to a final merge unless you request otherwise (request IAP) after accepting the first vector. Under IAP you are on your own until final when you are passed to tower.

 

RC has an internal database of terrain around airports and the calculated MSA is averaged for all quadrants. If you are flying through a valley to get to approach especially an offset approach then following it using a published STAR and IAP is recommended.

 

For KBUR going direct from LYNXX to an IAF might get you close to obstacles.

 

This VFR chart shows why flying close to VNY, then west to an IAF and turning inbound for RWY 8 might be a good idea.

 

http://skyvector.com/?ll=34.200694444,-118.358666667&chart=469&zoom=3

Thankls ronzie... I didn't have any charts with me and don't know the KBUR area at all, and also hace very little experience with RC- so I may have been better not responding to the OP.... I was just giving a very generic example of a vector to the approach gate....

 

Thanks for the correction .... Bruce.

[ronzie 21]

 

 

So I guess the way to do it would be to fly over VNY VOR and then south for a few miles then turn into a downwind and try to intercept the FAF at a 30 degree angle. Would this be OK? I guess sometimes in RC your going to have to vector yourself occasionally?

 

As the IAP chart shows, you should fly westbound from VNY to join one of the IAFs. Since you'll be flying westbound where you join you'll be in the incorrect direction so you fly in part the race track pattern for descent if necessary then inbound (which is upwind, not downwind, by position only definition). Downwind is opposite to the runway heading direction.

 

At KBUR if you don't wish to be strict just let RC vector you but keep an eye on altitude and you position to see if obstacles are in the way. Using NOTAMS RC becomes advisory so you can deviate altitude if necessary.

[ap1 16]

As the IAP chart shows, you should fly westbound from VNY to join one of the IAFs. Since you'll be flying westbound where you join you'll be in the incorrect direction so you fly in part the race track pattern for descent if necessary then inbound (which is upwind, not downwind, by position only definition). Downwind is opposite to the runway heading direction.

 

At KBUR if you don't wish to be strict just let RC vector you but keep an eye on altitude and you position to see if obstacles are in the way. Using NOTAMS RC becomes advisory so you can deviate altitude if necessary.

Thanks.  Does using NOTAMS work for the approach phase?  If it does work, does that mean when RC gives me radar vectors, I don't have to follow the altitudes they give?

[ronzie 21]

NOTAMS allows you to deviate from altitudes through pre-approach and approach without reprimand. Crossing restrictions at about 40 nm  out must be met and this occurs before the approach phase. The crossing restriction command starts with "I need you down to (altitude) in xxxxx  or less." There also is a statement that you are responsible for obstacle clearance but altitudes as advisories are given when using NOTAMS.