The realities of airline flying (anecdotal and UK based).

[g_precentralis 191]

Guy's look up P2F (Pay to fly) You will see what we are talking about. 

Well, if there's no other options, I see it as legitimate.

[kamaz74 81]

Well, if there's no other options, I see it as legitimate.

 

This is the problem with the industry. 

[FLEX1978 373]

Well, if there's no other options, I see it as legitimate.

 

The issue is not paying for a type rating. The issue is someone can go from playing Flight sim straight to the right seat of airliner because they have a big bank balance.  There's a reason most airlines don't allow it, you only see this going on with low budget airlines  because it saves money. 

 

Would you be happy knowing that the guy up front has 200 hours and bought his way to the flight deck?  Have a read of the many stories about guy's with sub par skills failing sim checks over and over but the company lets them stay because they are paying for the training.   Any other company would show them the door.

This is the problem with the industry. 

Exactly

[g_precentralis 191]

This is the problem with the industry. 

No, it's not a problem, it's a consequence. Real problems are much more serious.

[Anxu00 176]

 

 

I think people underestimate quite how tedious the job can be, and when you add distance, jet lag, poor working conditions and the constant possibility of failing a medical it is also extremely stressful.

Lucky for me I have the simulator!  Even then the tedium is apparent.  I used to fancy being an airline pilot, not any more for me.  I still enjoy flying (simming that is) and knowing about aviation as an hobby.  However, hobby and real life career are two very different things.  Real pilots fly a route, unlike simmer who can fancy any route  :lol:

[FLEX1978 373]

No, it's not a problem, it's a consequence. Real problems are much more serious.

 

Have a read of this my friend, just one example. The first officer (P2F) was known for screwing up his landings in training. http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Airbus%20A320,%20G-DHJZ%2012-08.pdf

 

assessed in a Boeing 737 simulator. 

Although he performed well in the non-flying aspects 

of the assessment, his performance in the simulator 

did not meet the required standard. However, he was 

offered a further assessment in an A320 simulator with 

a senior training captain employed by the training 

organisation. He passed this second assessment and 

was offered a place on the scheme.

 

His first training detail in the full flight simulator was 

on 10 March 2007 and, during this part of his training, 

he was taught by six different instructors. During this 

period his landing technique was a recurring theme 

of concern and relevant notes were made a number 

of times in his reports.

 

The co-pilot’s ninth training detail was scheduled as the 

Licence Skills Test (LST) for issue of the A320/321 type 

rating, but the co-pilot did not perform satisfactorily.

[g_precentralis 191]

The issue is not paying for a type rating. The issue is someone can go from playing Flight sim straight to the right seat of airliner because they have a big bank balance.  There's a reason most airlines don't allow it, you only see this going on with low budget airlines  because it saves money. 

 

Would you be happy knowing that the guy up front has 200 hours and bought his way to the flight deck?  Have a read of the many stories about guy's with sub par skills failing sim checks over and over but the company lets them stay because they are paying for the training.   Any other company would show them the door.

 

 

The real issue is when you get CPL + IR + MEP + MCC - you have around 200-300 hours and you can work really nothing. Remember, you're already 60-70k $ in debt, with no job. Perspective that you'll even touch an airliner or bizzjet in your career is very slim. Just look at any normal airline, 1500 jet time is about lowest you can find. Where I can build 1500 jet time if no one won't let me to fly a jet?

[nam1394 10]

I think the best and the fair way to solve this problem is to list these airlines and publish it, so passengers know and decide if the cheap tickets are worth it or not.

[Don t moderate me this way 882]

What do the aviation agencies and regulatory bodies do about it? Accommodating it???   :rolleyes:

[g_precentralis 191]

What do the aviation agencies and regulatory bodies do about it? Accommodating it???   :rolleyes:

Nothing. If they stop such a practice, there would be no jet pilots anymore (when existing jet pilots retire).

[FLEX1978 373]

The real issue is when you get CPL + IR + MEP + MCC - you have around 200-300 hours and you can work really nothing. Remember, you're already 60-70k $ in debt, with no job. Perspective that you'll even touch an airliner or bizzjet in your career is very slim. Just look at any normal airline, 1500 jet time is about lowest you can find. Where I can build 1500 jet time if no one won't let me to fly a jet?

 

I don't know how about the old fashioned way? Join the regional division of an airline and work your way up? no one say's it is easy.  It goes back to what I originally said, many want to get straight to big shiny jets. These low costs airlines know this and entice people with low hour requirements, pay for your training and we will fast track you to the right seat of an A320

[g_precentralis 191]

I don't know how about the old fashioned way? Join the regional division of an airline and work your way up? no one say's it is easy.  It goes back to what I originally said, many want to get straight to big shiny jets, these low costs airliners know this and entice people with low hour requirements, pay for your training and we will fast track you to the right seat of an A320

Maybe in US. We do not have an regular airline, let alone regional one. I know many people stuck at airfields instructing for PPL for decades now, because they cannot find anything better to do with their 70k $ license - I'm not going to do that.

[ckyliu 1,749]

Just to add my tuppence worth, one of my friends had about 50-100 hours as a PPL, earned his fATPL in Spain over about 6-9 months and then went in to an FO job at Ryanair within a couple of months, he most certainly did not have 1500 hours, only around 250-350. Yes, he had to pay Ryanair for his 737 type rating but I wouldn't say that was P2F or that he had bad airmanship, he still gets paid by Ryanair for all his flying and Ryanair training and SOPs are just as good as any other airline.

 

Afaik, pay to fly pilots don't really exist in Western Europe. It's a practise I tend to associate with airlines such as Lionair. However, airline cadet/sponsorship places are few and far between in Europe so most airline pilots here now have to pay/borrow €80,000 to get their fATPLs. I believe the guys my friend qualified with are still looking for jobs now, many months after qualifying.

 

As others here have said, working conditions at Ryanair are not great as you're effectively self-employed acting as a contractor to them and they only pay you for the scheduled flight times they give you. If you don't go where they want you, you don't get assigned hours. And you have to pay for all your drinks, food, uniform etc. Because of the working conditions at FR there is a perennial shortage of captain's because once the FOs have 1500 hours they sod off to other airlines.

[kamaz74 81]

sod off

Never knew what this meant before Top Gear