A Question of Flight Models??

[Guest byoung]

I have been flying the Flight One ATR and then transistioning to the Feel There ERJ.Both are excellent airplanes. The Flight One ATR model is just outstanding. I can say that it is as real as it gets or as close to real flying for this aircraft as possible on a computer.The Feel There ERJ and other A/C like the Paggio Avanti, im my mind have a hard time "slowing down in descents". I know sim FT ERJ pilots have a procedure established for slowing the A/C down, but is this what real world pilots have to go through to slow down the ERJ? Does the PDMG 737 have the same attributes when it comes to descents? Hard to slow down? Am I just not getting the proper procedure down?Even with full spoiler / speed brakes, I can't get the ERJ to slow down below 250 knots under 10,000 ft. Even at a modest 2,000 FPM descent.Is this problem a combination of FS ATC not descending the ERJ or Jet aircraft for that matter soon enough, being more gradual? In the Flight One ATR, I can slow it down with no problem and keep the speed well under 250 knots with a 2000 FPM descent. Is this just modeled better? Just like to get some thoughts here.Barry

[michal 44]

Well, it is hard to compare ATR and ERJ - two completely different airplanes. ERJ is bound to be more slipery and ATR with its huge props will definitely be easier to slow down. I suspect your problem is in the descent rate (or rather dumb ATC in FS). In real life aircraft are brought down more gradually over longer distances in series of steps.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2

[Guest byoung]

Thanks Micheal,Hopefully some RW pilots that fly these planes will chime in!Barry

[michal 44]

I also looked up at the table data we use here at NASA to simulate movement of aircraft for the purpose of ATC simulation. For the ERJ at 10000 ft the nominal decsent rate is shown to be around 1950 ft/min but the accompanied speed is 285 kts. So that would confirm what you see: it is impossible to go below 250 kts with the descent rate of around 2000 ft/min.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2

[Guest byoung]

Thanks Micheal...Maybe that is why the ERJ doesn't spaun the warning even below 10K until you reach the first assigned descent altitude below 10K.Anyway, I just was wondering.. That is what I do currently is reduce (or increase) the FPM to 1600 or lower. But FS ATC doesn't give you enough time to desent at that rate. You really need 2000 FPM to get down for FS ATC to set up the approach.Microsoft (WHERE IS THE PATCH!) :) Maybe FS 2006. HOPEFULLYBarry

[michal 44]

I am 95% certain that ATC is the culprit here.But anyway, ask KevinAu (or send him private msg) - he posts here and he flies ERJ-145 for a living.EDIT: I just saw Kevin's post on Hangar Chat forum.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2

[Orlaam 306]

The PMDG 737NG is extremely difficult to slow down, however, I've heard and read that the real NG is just as hard to slow down. The NG spoiler isn't that effective either, so they usually have to descent sooner so they can slow in time.

[michal 44]

There is a huge disconnect between the world of FS and its ATC and how real descents are made. I happen to know something about it since at the moment my day job is to simulate approaches to all major airports in the Cleveland Center (ZOB) for the purpose of evaluating different ATC schemes. I run all this simulation on my latop. If I could I would show you how real jet aircraft descend - they don't do it in one single sweep but rather in number of steps. Those steps are to satisfy verious agreements between centers or sectors (for example NY center must deleliver a Pittsburgh bound aircraft at such an altitude). This not only spreads descents over longer distances but from the point of view of ATC - it primarily separtes different flows by putting them in different stratas. By the way, those step-downs are not part of any STAR - they are not published for pilots - they are published on internal documents that circulate only between different Centers/Sectors. They are called LOAs (Letters of Agreements) and SOPs (Standard Operational Procedures).Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2

[KevinAu 441]

>>Even with full spoiler / speed brakes, I can't get the ERJ to>slow down below 250 knots under 10,000 ft. Even at a modest>2,000 FPM descent.>>>>Barry> You will not get an ERJ to decelerate during a 2000fpm descent. Try 500-1000fpm if you need to decelerate. Use a good 2500fpm descent to get down first, then when nearing 10,000', reduce the descent rate to 1000fpm to slow down, once slowed to 250kts, resume a 2000fpm descent through 10,000'.

[Guest byoung]

>>will not get an ERJ to decelerate during a 2000fpm descent. Try 500-1000fpm if you need to decelerate. Use a good 2500fpm descent to get down first, then when nearing 10,000', reduce the descent rate to 1000fpm to slow down, once slowed to 250kts, resume a 2000fpm descent through 10,000'.:) Maybe FS 2006Barry

[michal 44]

You can also try this new ATC program called VoxATC - it is voice activated. One of the options there is ability to ask for lower altitude - this can be used to initiate an early descent.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2

[Guest byoung]

You can do that with FS ATC as well, request lower.But ATC (VOX or FS) should do that automatically!Thanks!Barry

[Orlaam 306]

>There is a huge disconnect between the world of FS and its>ATC and how real descents are made. I happen to know something>about it since at the moment my day job is to simulate>approaches to all major airports in the Cleveland Center (ZOB)>for the purpose of evaluating different ATC schemes. I run all>this simulation on my latop. If I could I would show you how>real jet aircraft descend - they don't do it in one single>sweep but rather in number of steps. Those steps are to>satisfy verious agreements between centers or sectors (for>example NY center must deleliver a Pittsburgh bound aircraft>at such an altitude). This not only spreads descents over>longer distances but from the point of view of ATC - it>primarily separtes different flows by putting them in>different stratas. By the way, those step-downs are not part>of any STAR - they are not published for pilots - they are>published on internal documents that circulate only between>different Centers/Sectors. They are called LOAs (Letters of>Agreements) and SOPs (Standard Operational Procedures).>>Michael J.>WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB>Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2Yeah, that's very much a fact. I listen to the ATC around me for KPHX and they always step down as well as get speed restrictions. The SID/STAR thing is adhered to loosely in the real world. It just depends, but sometimes I hear a partial DP or IAP that is published as a terminal procedure. Here at KPHX, most planes from the north are vectored to BRUSR on approach, then generally given specific instructions that don't seem to follow the STARs. Also, our weather is almost always clear and normal, so the visual approach is given 95% of the time. It's always descend and maintain 6000, then the next controller will say descend and maintain 4000 until 9 DME, ect....