I Broke My A2A 172 :)

[JB3DG 225]

Interesting timing for this topic. I just finished the forced landing exercise for my PPL yesterday. I might attempt a 180 deg turn at 500ft in the Samba XL I was flying in as she has a very good glide ratio but not in more traditional trainers like the C172 or Cherokee. Its a tough decision though cuz at some airports you don't have much space at the end of the runway due to residential areas or other obstructions.

[Great Ozzie 101]

Yes it is! It takes lots of experience to do that correctly. But I mean that pure theory says that in 45 degree bank and minimum speed you will have the lowest altitude loss in a turn.

The "pure theory" part of your post had me scratching my head... then I found a paper I had read by David F. Rogers (United States Naval Academy) The Possible 'Impossible' Turn where this "pure theory" is discussed. He also wrote a paper The Penalities of Non-optimal Turnback Maneuvers.  Both can be found (google for pdf) and I think are worth reading.

 

So yes... there is the theory... and then there is the actual "practice".  For that, here's a good article from Flying Magazine on the practicalities of such a manuever: The Human Factor: Big Push, Improbable Turn

 

What I meant by "weight imbalance" is that there is some lateral force? lateral momentum?

I thought you were referring to "pro-spin" yaw forces... which slips / skid would the two big ones for starting the autorotation.

 

Thanks! I have learnt something new again [ :lol:]

 

 

Thanks, me too... I always do in these discussions.  Part of why find them so valuable.

[Oracle427 45]

Twojastara,

 

Do yourself a favor after you get your PPL and sign up for spin and upset recovery training. You can thank me later ;p.

 

It is a ton of fun and very mentally and physically challenging. You'll need a strong stomach for 45 minutes of air work but it is worth every second.

 

I also recommend Rich Stowell's book Stall Spin Awareness. I flew with him for that training and I would say the book is very useful prereading. It is very good to understand the physiological impacts of spinning and how they can totally interfere with your cognitive processes.

[twojastara 85]

Great Ozzie thanks for some reading materials. I will browse those during the weekend.

I have recently found this "pure theory" in Polish equivalent to "Flying" magazine. And I'm pretty sure the author did mention about this paper by David F. Rogers :rolleyes: but I don't remember exactly.

 

Do yourself a favor after you get your PPL and sign up for spin and upset recovery training. You can thank me later ;p.

 

I will! I was discussing this last flight with my FI. I was in intentional spin maybe 3-4 times with my FI - he said it would be good experience to me. And I must say this is scary as s*** :lol: But I didn't recover from those by myself. I want to do training after which I will be confident I can do it.

 

I also recommend Rich Stowell's book Stall Spin Awareness. I flew with him for that training and I would say the book is very useful prereading. It is very good to understand the physiological impacts of spinning and how they can totally interfere with your cognitive processes.

 

I will try to find it. Thanks!

 

I think that the most valuable thing I've learnt from this thread is to change my bad habit of correcting bank first before pushing the stick when I am starting to stall and one wing slowly drops. I had numerous sitiuations like this while flying a2a c172 (in real world I am more cautious of course :P ). And this got me thinking to change this bad habit once for all.

[Great Ozzie 101]

 

 

I also recommend Rich Stowell's book Stall Spin Awareness.

I actually ordered this a couple days ago from Amazon.  

 

And I must say this is scary as s***

I will confess, years ago I was nearly petrified of spins (more accurately, large deviations in pitch from level flight).  I was not so comfortable with things like departure stalls...

Then I took an Unusual Attitudes course in a DHC-1 Chipmunk.  After the first couple of spins... I actually started having a blast spinning.  Great Fun!  And a great confidence builder.

Welcome btw for the links.  Very interesting stuff.

-Rob

[BeechPapa 32]

Lot’s of interesting points and articles to read mentioned here. I have to ask how many “balls” can be juggled at the same time by a pilot… (trying to keep my puns limited here) Though a perfectly centered ball won’t spin the aircraft, even during stall, who is really looking at the ball while they are stalling at 500ft? I’d be looking at the ground, and trying to judge how close I can get to it before I can’t pull up anymore. Keeping an eye on yaw moment in a post-stall maneuver during an airshow at 2,000ft is a surgical pre-planned maneuver, but 500ft after takeoff is a different scenario.  

 

Also, at 300-500ft after takeoff you might be compensating for crosswind or prop torque with aileron or rudder, and now the engine goes out, your rudder/stick input is immediately out of balance and inappropriate. This needs to be corrected, the ball perfectly centered, and kept there during the entire length of the turn back maneuver (if you chose to spin the roulette wheel) which requires a 45 degree bank-dive to the ground with 270 degrees of required turning radius w/ final correction and flare. 180 degrees only got me to the little league field that lies parallel to the airport during practice in FSX. Which again begs the question of whether to look at the ball or the ground/horizon. It's a pretty scary scenario either way.  

[Oracle427 45]

In order to remain coordinated you don't need to look at the ball. You can feel it in the seat of your pants. Unfortunately you can't get this feedback in the simulator.

 

You have to be in tune with the specific aircraft you are flying as well because each one will feel different.

 

The ball doesn't have to be dead center to prevent a spin. If you stall and start to yaw or drop a wing, the ball isn't going to do anything for you at that point anyway. You need to stop the yaw and recover from the stall. The horizon outside the window is your best tool at that point.

 

The issue with being uncoordinated is that you can induce a stall with yaw with no warning that rolls over very quickly into a spin. Then if you do the wrong thing and try to counter the roll with aileron you have now added every possible pro spin input.

 

If you practice good habits and can maintain coordination without using the ball then you'll be much better off if an emergency occurs because it will be second nature.

 

One also really shouldn't have to think about all this very much. It is drilled into you during training and tested and retested during the check ride and check out.

[ZachLW 37]

 

Lot’s of interesting points and articles to read mentioned here. I have to ask how many “balls” can be juggled at the same time by a pilot… (trying to keep my puns limited here) Though a perfectly centered ball won’t spin the aircraft, even during stall, who is really looking at the ball while they are stalling at 500ft? I’d be looking at the ground, and trying to judge how close I can get to it before I can’t pull up anymore. Keeping an eye on yaw moment in a post-stall maneuver during an airshow at 2,000ft is a surgical pre-planned maneuver, but 500ft after takeoff is a different scenario.  

 

Also, at 300-500ft after takeoff you might be compensating for crosswind or prop torque with aileron or rudder, and now the engine goes out, your rudder/stick input is immediately out of balance and inappropriate. This needs to be corrected, the ball perfectly centered, and kept there during the entire length of the turn back maneuver (if you chose to spin the roulette wheel) which requires a 45 degree bank-dive to the ground with 270 degrees of required turning radius w/ final correction and flare. 180 degrees only got me to the little league field that lies parallel to the airport during practice in FSX. Which again begs the question of whether to look at the ball or the ground/horizon. It's a pretty scary scenario either way.  

 

 

Instead of staring at the ball during stalls, I will have students look at the wingtip in relation to reference points outside and beyond it.  If the reference point(s) is moving left to right, right rudder (and vice versa).  Of course this is helpful when wings level.

 

VFR pilots should always have "eyes outside".  Some say 80% outside and 20% inside. I demand more time outside with my students. To a point of doing entire lessons with airspeed, DG, and/or altimeter covered.

[BeechPapa 32]

The issue with being uncoordinated is that you can induce a stall with yaw with no warning that rolls over very quickly into a spin. Then if you do the wrong thing and try to counter the roll with aileron you have now added every possible pro spin input.

 Which is exactly the why I think a pilot should weigh the risk vs. reward in keeping an aircraft with failed engine close to stall territory. The seat of the pants feeling might be helpful, but it has also proven to be misleading to pilots. We are not organisms built to fly, and our seat of the pants feelings can often be wrong. Zach's technique of looking at the wingtips seems to address this issue better than pure seat of the pants feel. But I'd still question the risk vs. reward of any low altitude maneuvering with loss of an engine.

 

I don't mean to be a wagging-the-finger type, but my interest in aviation has led to read a lot of safety record information and NTSB reports on planes that I am particularly fond of or have novel engineering features. I will never stop being surprised how pilots (even with lots of experience in competent planes) can end up in such bad circumstances. Low altitude spin cases are some of the most cringe-inducing reports to read because they are so preventable, and yet there are so many. 

 

 

Instead of staring at the ball during stalls, I will have students look at the wingtip in relation to reference points outside and beyond it.  If the reference point(s) is moving left to right, right rudder (and vice versa).  Of course this is helpful when wings level.

 

VFR pilots should always have "eyes outside".  Some say 80% outside and 20% inside. I demand more time outside with my students. To a point of doing entire lessons with airspeed, DG, and/or altimeter covered.

 

That’s quite informative, thanks for mentioning this technique. I’ve noticed that wing tips hold a lot of info, and indicate oscillations well. I will try to integrate this technique. 

[Oracle427 45]

 

 

We are not organisms built to fly, and our seat of the pants feelings can often be wrong.

 

This is true,m which is why flying in IMC can very quickly prove fatal for someone without training. In VMC, the combination of the visual cues over the nose or out on the wingtips along with the seat of the pants all work together (or should) to give you the information required to retain control. I would not want to be in that same situation in IMC as it will be quite a bit more challenging to execute an "impossible turn".

 

I also like to read the reports in my spare time so that I am always learning from others mistakes, lest they be repeated.

 

A failed engine and low to the ground is no time to bring out your inner Bob Hoover. :rolleyes:

[BeechPapa 32]

This is true,m which is why flying in IMC can very quickly prove fatal for someone without training. In VMC, the combination of the visual cues over the nose or out on the wingtips along with the seat of the pants all work together (or should) to give you the information required to retain control. I would not want to be in that same situation in IMC as it will be quite a bit more challenging to execute an "impossible turn".

 

I also like to read the reports in my spare time so that I am always learning from others mistakes, lest they be repeated.

 

A failed engine and low to the ground is no time to bring out your inner Bob Hoover. :rolleyes:

lol, particularly about the Bob Hoover comment. Well said on all points though. 

[ZachLW 37]

This is true,m which is why flying in IMC can very quickly prove fatal for someone without training. In VMC, the combination of the visual cues over the nose or out on the wingtips along with the seat of the pants all work together (or should) to give you the information required to retain control. I would not want to be in that same situation in IMC as it will be quite a bit more challenging to execute an "impossible turn".

 

I also like to read the reports in my spare time so that I am always learning from others mistakes, lest they be repeated.

 

A failed engine and low to the ground is no time to bring out your inner Bob Hoover. :rolleyes:

 

You raise a good point, as always.  What is seat of the pants anyway?!  That's a good question to ask anyone that over uses the term!  It's a combination of sight, sound, and feel in your feet and hands.  Level to cruise, for instance:  Use your eyes to set level with the cowling and horizon, your ears to set the RPM roughly to your desired setting, and the feeling/pressure in your hands to trim the aircraft to keep it there.  Seat of the pants!

 

It's fun to ask someone who preaches seat of the pants the above question -- but doesn't fly the aircraft that way (the folks that ask what "rotate" speed is in a 172 ^_^ [inevitably I answer with "I don't care" or "when she's ready"]).   I love flying with those folks.

[JB3DG 225]

Its actually quite fun to learn this technique. I found for myself that when I switched from a fist on the stick to thumb and forefinger I could feel so much more. I hope to get a sense for ground effect at some point in my PPL.

[curt1 79]

Its actually quite fun to learn this technique. I found for myself that when I switched from a fist on the stick to thumb and forefinger I could feel so much more. I hope to get a sense for ground effect at some point in my PPL.

 

What a great tip!  It's so much easier to flare the plane smoothly using the thumb and forefinger.  I was dropping the plane on the runway before, and upsetting my virtual passengers.

[Lewis B 14]

(the folks that ask what "rotate" speed is in a 172 ^_^ [inevitably I answer with "I don't care" or "when she's ready"]). I love flying with those folks.

 

This ive learnt is simmer'itis and can also affect real pilots who treat a sim too differently to the real deal. Its a Vulcans method of flying, a pure look at the numbers and nothing else. Its a shame too, as they are not simulating anything in reality when simming this way :ph34r:

 

Remember even Spock had a hint of Human in him hehe