Runway Specific SIDS and STARS

[ap1 16]

I have some questions on the use of these types of SIDS and STARS in RC.  I am also using the default GPS in FSX which can't load a second flightplan enroute and can't modify flightplans.  So let's say for example we want to fly from KLAX to KLAS.  The main SID is Loop 7 at KLAX and Kepc 3 at KLAS.  Loop 7 is for the 25 and 24 runways.  But let's say you have to use the 6 and 7 runways.  I don't know if you have to change the SID or not.  And the STAR at KLAS is for 25L I believe.  But what if the back of this runway is in use by the AI and RC or the other runways are in use?  I'm not sure what the proper way to do this would be.

 

 

[ronzie 21]

If you look at runway specific SIDs and STARs you may see several common waypoints for all runways which are based on incoming or outgoing transition points from enroute airways. Basically you just just include the waypoints common to all runways in the plan sent to RC. Use the NOTAMS feature. You can then take vectors from RC or use the RC IAP feature for arrival and navigate arrival on your own after the common waypoints. For the first 30 nm of departure you can navigate on your own (one of the two altitude options which also is forced if you have a plan waypoint within the first 30 nm) or take vectors to the first waypoint outside of RC's 30 nm departure zone.

 

Failing these, you'll have to tell RC which runways to use if not the RC suggested one and risk ai conflicts. This you do if you put all of the runway specific waypoints of a SID or STAR in the plan sent to RC.

 

Use a separate .pln file sent to the aircraft if necessary. It depends if your aircraft GPS/FMC has an internal database (terminal procedures) of SIDs, STARs, and approaches. If not for the GPS/FMC just use common waypoints.

 

fsb tips and update.pdf

 

This refers to FSBuild and PS/FMC aircraft but several paragraphs within discuss techniques used where runway specific SIDs and STARs are used.

 

I use FSBuild 2.4 because it has an option called build from route table grid which needs to be set for each session. After you auto-route or load a plan into FSBuild and let it build the table, you then enable the option and you can delete waypoints from the SID/STAR areas and then rebuild with export to FS and any FMC format it supports as necessary to get the desired results. You may export one plan for RC and another to the GPS if necessary. I do not know if Flight Sim Commander or PFE can do this. I don't know if any freeware planners can.

 

 

fsb tips and update.pdf

[ap1 16]

If you look at runway specific SIDs and STARs you may see several common waypoints for all runways which are based on incoming or outgoing transition points from enroute airways. Basically you just just include the waypoints common to all runways in the plan sent to RC. Use the NOTAMS feature. You can then take vectors from RC or use the RC IAP feature for arrival and navigate arrival on your own after the common waypoints. For the first 30 nm of departure you can navigate on your own (one of the two altitude options which also is forced if you have a plan waypoint within the first 30 nm) or take vectors to the first waypoint outside of RC's 30 nm departure zone.

 

Failing these, you'll have to tell RC which runways to use if not the RC suggested one and risk ai conflicts. This you do if you put all of the runway specific waypoints of a SID or STAR in the plan sent to RC.

 

Use a separate .pln file sent to the aircraft if necessary. It depends if your aircraft GPS/FMC has an internal database (terminal procedures) of SIDs, STARs, and approaches. If not for the GPS/FMC just use common waypoints.

 

 

 

This refers to FSBuild and PS/FMC aircraft but several paragraphs within discuss techniques used where runway specific SIDs and STARs are used.

 

I use FSBuild 2.4 because it has an option called build from route table grid which needs to be set for each session. After you auto-route or load a plan into FSBuild and let it build the table, you then enable the option and you can delete waypoints from the SID/STAR areas and then rebuild with export to FS and any FMC format it supports as necessary to get the desired results. You may export one plan for RC and another to the GPS if necessary. I do not know if Flight Sim Commander or PFE can do this. I don't know if any freeware planners can.

I'm still not so sure on let's say the HOLTZ 9 out of KLAX.  It's for the 24 and 25 runways but if using the 6 and 7 runways would you have to change SIDS?

[superglide17 11]

If you want to depart to the east you need a different SID. Take a look at CHATTY2 for example.

[ap1 16]

If you want to depart to the east you need a different SID. Take a look at CHATTY2 for example.

Well, that wouldn't work that well though with RC.  They give you the runway on the ground controller which is after you start your flight of course, and it's too late to change your flightplan or SID.  I can't do that anyway because I'm using the default GPS which can't modify flightplans or load terminal procedures.

[superglide17 11]

Can't you change the wind in your weather settings so as to get another runway?

[ronzie 21]

Choose a non-RNAV departure. They are usually more vector compliant. Look at LAXX6 as an example for eastern departures. It accommodates all runways and has has two eastern transition points. non-RNAV terminal procedures are much more flexible. In this case just select the one of the two eastern exit transition points. Notice that TRM here is also an eastern transition exit in HOLTZ9. Note that the LAX VOR is just a guide here, not a waypoint.

 

Now on LAXX6 if you depart on the eastern runways or western runways the split-out occurs at SLI. It is however closer than 30 nm to the airport so if you want vectors assuming you want the TRM transition exit either guide yourself to line up crossing SLI then to TUSTI or exclude SLI from the RC waypoint plan to get vectors to TUSTI.

 

I used a KLAX to KDAL to test generating a plan. It gave me either HOLTZ9 or another RNAV departure but it was runway dependent. I subsituted in the route LAXX6.TRM and it looks good for all runways.

[ap1 16]

Can't you change the wind in your weather settings so as to get another runway?

Well, I could of course, but I use real weather.

Choose a non-RNAV departure. They are usually more vector compliant. Look at LAXX6 as an example for eastern departures. It accommodates all runways and has has two eastern transition points. non-RNAV terminal procedures are much more flexible. In this case just select the one of the two eastern exit transition points. Notice that TRM here is also an eastern transition exit in HOLTZ9. Note that the LAX VOR is just a guide here, not a waypoint.

 

Now on LAXX6 if you depart on the eastern runways or western runways the split-out occurs at SLI. It is however closer than 30 nm to the airport so if you want vectors assuming you want the TRM transition exit either guide yourself to line up crossing SLI then to TUSTI or exclude SLI from the RC waypoint plan to get vectors to TUSTI.

 

I used a KLAX to KDAL to test generating a plan. It gave me either HOLTZ9 or another RNAV departure but it was runway dependent. I subsituted in the route LAXX6.TRM and it looks good for all runways.

Even for RNAV SIDS though, couldn't I just leave out all the waypoints and just keep the transition point and get vectors for it?  I think that would work for RNAV departures.  I guess this way would be best, because the default GPS cannot load SIDS and STARS.  It can only load IAP procedures which probably isn't good enough.  So it looks like I can leave common points in and just use the vectors RC gives.

[ronzie 21]

The GPS will show any waypoints you have in the plan. The plan has the waypoint labels and coordinates so that should work. Therefore, include the SID waypoints you want in the plan. By a SID transition I am referring to the waypoint of the SID exit. It usually lies on an airway.

 

The RNAV SIDS have mostly very short legs from takeoff if defining a say a loop back curve. You could get outside easily of RC's tolerance. This is the case with HOLZ9.

 

Some SIDs can be very long and encompass a good part of enroute. There you need some waypoints from the SID to take you to the airway transition point. It depends how long the SID is to take you to the airway, if at all. If you go on a short route say from KLAX to KPSP (Palm Beach) both exit transition points go way beyond the destination. An airway may not be used here.

[ap1 16]

The GPS will show any waypoints you have in the plan. The plan has the waypoint labels and coordinates so that should work. Therefore, include the SID waypoints you want in the plan. By a SID transition I am referring to the waypoint of the SID exit. It usually lies on an airway.

 

The RNAV SIDS have mostly very short legs from takeoff if defining a say a loop back curve. You could get outside easily of RC's tolerance. This is the case with HOLZ9.

 

Some SIDs can be very long and encompass a good part of enroute. There you need some waypoints from the SID to take you to the airway transition point. It depends how long the SID is to take you to the airway, if at all. If you go on a short route say from KLAX to KPSP (Palm Beach) both exit transition points go way beyond the destination. An airway may not be used here.

Are STARS rather the same way?  Just use the common points of the STAR and then when RC hands you off to the approach controller, you can take vectors or navigate yourself to the final approach course?

[ronzie 21]

 

 

re STARS rather the same way? Just use the common points of the STAR and then when RC hands you off to the approach controller, you can take vectors or navigate yourself to the final approach course?

 

Yes. RC will give you vectors starting just past the altitude restriction placed at 40 nm out at about 35 out. After you ack the first vector you can request an IAP approach to do you own navigation. I forgot if it is the main menu or the extended menu (9) by default. You then select the type of approach and runway. Try to use the runway RC selected for best ai pattern matching, weather conditions, and best runway facilities.

[ap1 16]

Yes. RC will give you vectors starting just past the altitude restriction placed at 40 nm out at about 35 out. After you ack the first vector you can request an IAP approach to do you own navigation. I forgot if it is the main menu or the extended menu (9) by default. You then select the type of approach and runway. Try to use the runway RC selected for best ai pattern matching, weather conditions, and best runway facilities.

OK, I'll try it out sometime.  Thanks.