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Nikdunaev

What if a passenger asks to see the flight papers?

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When I was flying 1900s, the FO would be boarding the pax while I was working on weight and balance, going over the dispatch paperwork or going thru the aircraft logbook. sometimes passengers will stick their heads in the cockpit and say they're a pilot or something and mention that if we needed help or anything they could help. At that point I'd smile and say "sure" I'll take you up on the offer. Thanks and just hand them the whole kit and caboodle. Aircraft maintenance log, dispatch, weight and balance and fuel slip. I'll just be in the terminal come get me when it's all done and let me know when we can go.

 

At that point most pax decline and go take their seats.

 

So that's what I've done when someone's asked about the paperwork.

 

Others are curious and ask what we were doing up front during the flight - because the pax can see what we are doing in flight. If they are sitting in seat 1A, sometimes I'll offer them a headset so they can listen in on the intercom during flight. Sometimes during the approach I'll look back in the cabin and usually most pax are all leaning into the aisle trying to look out the front window to see the runway - it's like looking thru a straw. A different view from the cabin than what we see up in the front.

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Personally, I've gotten the whole dispatch report on American from Chicago to Boston about 6 months ago. Being a teen, I went up to the captain in the terminal and asked to board a little early to watch them do preflight. I knew it was practically impossible, but what do you know, he let me! I sat there for 25 minutes, chatted a little and then went to sit in my seat for the flight. When I came back up, the FO wanted me to rate his landing on a scale of 1 to 10 (10!!  :P), they offered me the dispatch! Hanging up on my wall for when I do the ORD-BOS hop.

 

Will

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The latest posts start to look more like the real thing at least that is how it looks for me :)

 

Regarding the previous ones who are those guys mentioned above here supposed to be actually?

Did not you think that one has to commit a crime to get to the no fly list or even get arrested? :)

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Did not you think that one has to commit a crime to get to the no fly list or even get arrested? :)

 

No I don't because all that's needed is suspicion. You don't have to committ a crime to get on the no-fly list or get arrested,

 

On the wider point, the flight documents are the private property of the airline, and the public has no right to see them. Only those with legal authority are entitled to see them.

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No I don't because all that's needed is suspicion. You don't have to committ a crime to get on the no-fly list or get arrested,

 

Well, an aviation enthusiast explaining his interest in such stuff and then asking whether he could possibly take a look at papers most definitely isn't something that should get one arrested or on a no-fly list. 

 

If you know some countries / airlines where that would happen then please tell me, I want to avoid such dystopian places at any cost.

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In Europe after landing, I always ask for the flight plan to the captain and after explain about my hobby, generally speaking,  they are always kind.

Even after the 2001 On a flight from EGLL to KMIA on a BA flight, the captain gave me all the dispatch paper.

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Well, you could try your luck first with let's say a bus driver, ask for his license, bus insurance, ownership etc and let us know how it went hahaha!

 

More seriously, unless you board the aircraft as a local CAA inspector, not one Crew member will let you have a look at the flight paperwork, would it be cargo, passenger manifest, aircraft ownership or maintenance records etc. It's sensitive (and sometimes heavy!) data, and that's a serious breach of safety, for many reasons that people don't discuss on forums.

If some have agreed well good for them, I would be interested too in knowing these airlines, just to make sure I won't fly with them.

We live in times of darkness and your request would sound quite suspicious. Nowadays a word can be enough for offloading and making you spend a couple of hours with some guys that would forever change your views on this industry.

Also bear in mind that a Crew could loose his job for being nice, that's how it goes unfortunately.

 

 

 

As you can see above in other posts, you are wrong. What would be sensitive data in flight documentation? Fuel? Route? Winds? ZFW? Cost index? There's no sensitive data at all (if you exclude pilot signature and id - which is useless as long as you do not give someone to copy it).

 

And please, stop spreading your paranoia about dark world. If you do not ask, you will get nothing.

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Well, an aviation enthusiast explaining his interest in such...

 

How abouut a terrorist pretending to be an an aviation enthusiast explaining his interest?

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How abouut a terrorist pretending to be an an aviation enthusiast explaining his interest?

 

For a terrorist none of the info in those papers is going to make any difference. 

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For a terrorist none of the info in those papers is going to make any difference. 

 

Exactly - so how can you check that  an aviation enthusiast explaining his interest isn't a terrorist?

 

 

 

In Europe after landing, I always ask for the flight plan to the captain and after explain about my hobby, generally speaking, they are always kind.

 

Really? In the EU the flight plan (plus other documents) has to be retained for 3 months by the operator by law. Probably most other countries have similar requirements.

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Really? In the EU the flight plan (plus other documents) has to be retained for 3 months by the operator by law. Probably most other countries have similar requirements.

 

There's a copy. What do you think why they write "master" at the original ofp?

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There's a copy. What do you think why they write "master" at the original ofp?

 

Because the  flight plan  that has to be retained by law is the one that's  actually carried on the aircraft, and the one actually used by the flight crew.  Will the flight crew keep a second copy on hand to give to rubber-neckers?

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Because the  flight plan  that has to be retained by law is the one that's  actually carried on the aircraft, and the one actually used by the flight crew.  Will the flight crew keep a second copy on hand to give to rubber-neckers?

 

And they need that copy after flight for what reason? To read it at home as newspaper? Really, you give too much importance to bunch of papers serves nothing (after flight). 

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Exactly - so how can you check that  an aviation enthusiast explaining his interest isn't a terrorist?

 

If there's an armed terrorist on board an aircraft the security has already failed. Unarmed terrorist would get beaten up by pax & crew in no time, showing papers to him couldn't cause any harm. 

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And they need that copy after flight for what reason? To read it at home as newspaper? Really, you give too much importance to bunch of papers serves nothing (after flight). 

 

It's not a questtion "to read it at home as newspaper" but an essential aspect of safety. If there is a subsequent  incident, or even an accident, those papers can  become dealing with it.

 

That why there's a legal requirement to retain those papers, as well a a simple matter of commonsense.

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It's not a questtion "to read it at home as newspaper" but an essential aspect of safety. If there is a subsequent  incident, or even an accident, those papers can  become dealing with it.

 

That why there's a legal requirement to retain those papers, as well a a simple matter of commonsense.

No. Legal requirement is to retain original (master) papers, with correctly filled times, masses and everything. A copy is just useless bunch of papers after flight. There is no legal requirement to fill a copy with relevant numbers, nor you have to save it. It would be ridiculous to maintain two identical nav logs during flight.

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To the OP:

 

It's actually commendable that you have an interest in real flight ops.

 

I'm not sure if you are already licensed, or even working towards a license. But if neither, here's an idea. Even if you don't (or legally can't due to medical issues, etc.) intend to ever get your license, what you could do is channel that enthusiasm into studying, sitting and passing written tests.... even going to a community college where some offer the written tests as a class.... you could start with the private pilots' license and move on through the instrument rating, even get as far as the ATP exam, where you would know (in theory at least) as much as anyone else here or at any other aviation site.

 

When I started my private license I knew I didn't have the funds to complete it, but did my private and instrument written tests anyway, at a community college in the SFO Bay Area. Many years later when I actually did my private, then my instrument rating, I had to resit the exam due to the stale-date of the written without the actual license, which I thoroughly enjoyed.

 

You would be amazed how much you would learn.

 

Bruce.

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No. Legal requirement is to retain original (master) papers, with correctly filled times, masses and everything. A copy is just useless bunch of papers after flight. There is no legal requirement to fill a copy with relevant numbers, nor you have to save it. It would be ridiculous to maintain two identical nav logs during flight.

 

Where do you get the idea that there are multiple copies of everything on the flight desk? For example, there can only be one copy of the operational flight plan because all entries must be made concurrently and that  they must be  permanent in nature.

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Where do you get the idea that there are multiple copies of everything on the flight desk? For example, there can only be one copy of the operational flight plan because all entries must be made concurrently and that  they must be  permanent in nature.

I saw it with my own eyes, but as that's usually not enough in this kind of discussion, you can always take a look at many videos available at YT and in stores.

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I saw it with my own eyes, but as that's usually not enough in this kind of discussion, you can always take a look at many videos available at YT and in stores.

your lack of actual knowledge is showing, get a job and some experience and come back.

 

at my airline we sometimes will SITA the flight plan to the handler at a station for various operational reasons, ie, the crew may of reporting for egkk-egph-egkk-lebl-egkk and we then change the last 2 sectors to a lepa/

 

at reporting for the flight the crew will get 4 plogs but the 2 sectors have changed, so we will sita the new plogs to the handler.  we keep the original in the office, we even at some point just acars or sita the route string and the total fuel required, the enroute alternate and the destination alternates

 

in that case the 2 drivers dont even get a flightplan as such, rare but it happens.

 

Sometimes it really does annoy me simmers think they know everything due to owning a copy of game.

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your lack of actual knowledge is showing, get a job and some experience and come back.

 

at my airline we sometimes will SITA the flight plan to the handler at a station for various operational reasons, ie, the crew may of reporting for egkk-egph-egkk-lebl-egkk and we then change the last 2 sectors to a lepa/

 

at reporting for the flight the crew will get 4 plogs but the 2 sectors have changed, so we will sita the new plogs to the handler.  we keep the original in the office, we even at some point just acars or sita the route string and the total fuel required, the enroute alternate and the destination alternates

 

in that case the 2 drivers dont even get a flightplan as such, rare but it happens.

 

Sometimes it really does annoy me simmers think they know everything due to owning a copy of game.

You know nothing about me as I'm not that proud to write my qualifications in the signature.

 

That's great your company sometimes fail to deliver flight documentation to pilots.  :wacko: And you tell me to get some experience?  :lol:

Please tell me what's the airline, to be able to avoid it next time I travel.

 

Sometimes it really does annoy me how employees of some airline think their way of doing things is the only and the best way. "No one else knows better" attitude is just great.  Additionally, sometimes, it really annoys me how every person involved in any rw operations (catering contracting chef for example) consider himself as a master race.

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Hello

 

I understand that it would be quite an unusual situation and such thing is very unlikely to happen, but what do you think will happen should a passenger ask somebody of the crew to see some of the usual standard flight papers like the load manifest and such other things?

I can not think of a good reason for a usual passenger to ask for that, maybe of pure personal interest, as you guess, this guy would likely be a great sim and aviation fan...

What do you think of such a situation?

 

Thank you!

 

Just say, "Papers?  We don't need no steenkeen' papers!".  :wink:

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I don't know.

 

A few years back I was given a BA full flight plan at the end of the flight, plus the map.

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Hello

 

I understand that it would be quite an unusual situation and such thing is very unlikely to happen, but what do you think will happen should a passenger ask somebody of the crew to see some of the usual standard flight papers like the load manifest and such other things?

I can not think of a good reason for a usual passenger to ask for that, maybe of pure personal interest, as you guess, this guy would likely be a great sim and aviation fan...

What do you think of such a situation?

 

Thank you!

 

I am not a pilot and even if I was, in this era, I would not ask for any such thing.  I expect such a request might get you a private interview with some security people.  If you want to know about the flight route, altitudes and speeds, all you need is the flight number, then look up that flight on Flightaware.com.

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You know nothing about me as I'm not that proud to write my qualifications in the signature.

 

That's great your company sometimes fail to deliver flight documentation to pilots.  :wacko: And you tell me to get some experience?  :lol:

Please tell me what's the airline, to be able to avoid it next time I travel.

 

Sometimes it really does annoy me how employees of some airline think their way of doing things is the only and the best way. "No one else knows better" attitude is just great.  Additionally, sometimes, it really annoys me how every person involved in any rw operations (catering contracting chef for example) consider himself as a master race.

 

Just think orange...  :wink:

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