Complaint Forum

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

"There is a VERY good European flightsim site, where any concerns you may have or disatisfaction with a product can be discussed quite openly provided it does not degenerate to name calling and personal insults. A reflection I guess of a better cultural tolerance and acceptance of differing opinions and expectations. "And is all we are asking too. You are free to discuss products pro and con, but when accusations of theft, lying, deception (without substantive facts to support that claim) etc. break loose, as Ken points out, we take the necessary action to prevent further degrading of the conversation.

[Guest drobson]

I have no desire to get into any kind of debate. (With you or anyone else). That's a link I came across and unless and until it is overturned, it does have some bearing as to what can be said and done, and what responibilities ISP's hold.Let's also face the fact that you don't like me, and I don't like you and let it go at that. You seem to want to engage me in some sort of silly debate no matter what I post, and I'm just not going to let that occur.Bye!Darrell

[Guest oyvindhansen]

a better cultural tolerance and acceptance of differing>opinions and expectations. "Probably also a reflection of the fact that lawsuit threats aren't that common in Europe. There are generally few rewards to be had by suing anyone in most european courts, and a lot of potential traps unless your case is really strong, so people aren't that scared of lawyers.- Oyvind

[Sonar5 3]

Hi Darrell,Actually Darrell, I have no feelings either way about you, and I could give a rip whether you or anyone else likes me or not as I am not here to be liked, let's get that part clear.So that sentance I find simply diverting the topic at hand that YOU BROUGHT UP, Not me.And do you even want to learn about what that ruling really means?I stand by everything I wrote. You talk about passing on a link, and that case only addressed an item where something FALSE was stated. Totally different than telling the truth about a public figure on the Internet. The only bearing that case had was regading a FALSE STATEMENT made by someone, and that is all. Nothing More, and it was a STATE OF CALIFORNIA RULING. Again, why post that link if not willing to debate it. So in your opinion, what Responsibilities in LAW does an ISP have based upon that ruling, in your Opinion.If you feel you don't want to debate, then why post such an article and then make a claim you cannot back up with facts.I suggest in the future, you check your facts prior to hitting the post button.You also said:"You seem to want to engage me in some sort of silly debate no matter what I post, and I'm just not going to let that occur."Silly debate based upon you posting. I don't think so, Darrell.As a matter of FACT, I did a search of your username here and found that according to Avsim, you made 11 posts in the last month, while I only replied to you directly in this thread. That is a very high Ratio, and I very much disagree that I want to engage you. Again, the FACTS suggest otherwise. Care to eleaborate on your little Theory, and prove I am looking to engage you "NO MATTER WHAT YOU POST". Here are the links where you posted that anyone can verify by searching on a username. And unless the forum software here burped, it seems to be an accurate picture. If I repsond to you, I will address you directly. If however you read into posts words that are not there, that is of no concern to me.You know, So people don't get the wrong Idea about the Facts and truth and all.1) http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=search2) http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=search3) http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=search4) http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=search5) http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=search6) http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=search7) http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=search8) http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=searchAs usual, my Integrity is 100% in tact, and I will continue to tell the truth.Have A nice day Darrell.Best Regards,Joe

[Guest]

>"There is a VERY good European flightsim site, where any>concerns you may have or disatisfaction with a product can be>discussed quite openly provided it does not degenerate to>name calling and personal insults. A reflection I guess of>a better cultural tolerance and acceptance of differing>opinions and expectations. ">And that includes namecalling re the companies involved.Also, blatant lies are not tollerated. Remember that moderators are often longtime community members who have contacts inside the industry and who WILL try to follow up your complaints if they can and do some research.After all, that site also runs an online shoppe (just like Avsim) to generate some income towards running it and it would not do to have your own name associated with untrustworthy salespeople...While we Europeans may have the ability to be more tollerant, that does not mean we're more likely to allow ourselves to be used for attempts to deface people, especially if those people have done nothing to deserve that.

[Guest Ozzie]

>My last post on this topic:>>As was stated previously, we do not limit discussions negative>or positive about commericial developers as long as the posts>follow certain rules: mainly, keeping them civilized.>>Unfortunately, and this is not a mere USA problem, there are>posters who cannot seem to stay within the boundaries that>have been set. Once those boundaries are crossed, we take>action.>>Freedom of speech does NOT mean freedom from responsibility. >Remember you cannot yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater when>there is no fire. This forum is the crowded theater.>>Just my 2 pence.>>I agree wholeheartedly and do not expect you to answer - just consider my tuppence worthI only have a small number of posts here as it was only quite recent that I felt the need to ask some advice in one of your excellent forums but have been quite enthralled for some considerable time just browsingAnyway - to my point - I agree that there have been more than one thread "go off the rails" and degenerate to a personal attack by one or more persons on one or more other persons and THAT is totally wrong morally, legally, whatever - BUT to then just remove (whether by physical deletion or "locking")the thread either in part or whole whilst still allowing one sides almost psychotic rant against one or more non existent posts to stand for everyone to see without the balance of knowing what instigated the outburst could lead some people to a conclusion of this site not being impartialI am NOT saying that you do not have rules and the right to run your site anyway that you see fit - of course that is your right and no-one should deny thatWhat I am suggesting for your consideration is a way that you can still maintain the level of decorum that you desire and still convey to the "community" at large that you are at least trying to maintain an objective level of impartialityIf someone posts an outrageously defamatory "flame" thread then by all means use the delete button as any sane person wouldBut - in the case where someone posts a negative comment about a product then it is my opinion that the thread should at least be left to run - granted that there have been instances where that has quickly degenerated into a "mudslinging" session and DOES need to be moderatedMy suggestion for your consideration is this - instead of just wholeheartedly deleting posts or threads that may have already been seen by some (unless of course you have an entire team of 24/7 monitors) and thereby producing the perception that you may be exhibiting bias in one form or another - why not just delete the offending material and replace it with a "notation" to the effect that the deleted portion was considered "outside the bounds of our rules etc" - If that in fact constituted the entire post of some of your radical ravers then so be it - at least that way the wider readership will fairly quickly realise that some people cannot be trusted with a comment on a forum such as this and the person concerned will either "clean up their act" if they have something constructive to contribute OR they will do everyone a favour and get sick of knocking their head against a wallThis obviously applies to all sides of whatever discussion is occuring and would go a long way towards removing a perception of bias, censorship, whatever that is starting to become evident in more than one forum - a well publicised one being where a moderator attempted to impose his/her religous ideals (or lack thereof) on an entire forum during a recent festive event celebrated by quite a large portion of the world Have a nice day

[Guest mitch19542004]

Why not just create a site/forum where the only option is to check predefined boxs which discribes a users experience with a product. Perhaps a 1 ~ 5 grade system of the different issues. Then an over all rating can be made of the product.Mitch

[ejoiner 21]

Wont kill you to get a little peeved periodically Kenneth.Stretching the envelope is what forces good government.

[Guest glnflwrs]

"it occured to me that the "land of free speech" really is not, nor cannot be"Wrong! We in the US enjoy the most liberal liberties of speech and expression in the world.You can, for instance, express your opinion about anyone or anything and call the person names, brand him a bigot, a liar, a bum, etc, and as long as you express it as your opinion there are no legal actions that can be taken against you. (Except in privately owned and operated internet forums, :>) )IF you start stating, as fact, that a person has made false statements, has defrauded you or anyone, has committed a crime, etc, you'd better have proof or your open to liable actions. You can state anything, anywhere, about anyone, even the president, as long as it is your opinion, or is the truth. Except you can't say anything involving the intentional causing of death of the president.In Russia you may be able to flame your fellow comrades, but try flaming the government and see where you end up.In forums like this there have to be rules of conduct because not everyone is capable of self control. Not even me sometimes.So, Tom makes the rules, I follow them. Glenn