It's the Saitek X65F you are referring to.

 

I don't think that would help though would it Kevin. As it's the operator that's providing the force, not the stick.

It's not an issue as the force is still generated by the resistance of the stick to movement. The harder you pull the more pitch input the stick generates. So you get a force v position effect.

 

No hobby quality force feedback stick could generate realistic control forces.You need powerful torque motors (or stiff springs) and a rigid support structure. However, a rigid stick can generate as much force as you want. The problem is it doesn't move at the same time, unlike most aircraft controls.

 

It would be interesting to hear from anyone who is using the Saitek X65F stick with the PMDG 777, or any airliner sim.

If I remember correctly, before SP1 the trim indicator moved at 0.1 steps and PMDG mentioned they would correct that, so that it would be as in the real thing.

So I think 0.25 is correct.

 

I would have to take a look at the flight control page on the ND next time to confirm.

 

Today I looked at the trim indicator band (next to the throttle quadrant) during T.O. and acceleration/ clean up. One realy can not conclude much from that thing I tell you.

Most of the time during acceleration the trim indicator did not move at all.

It was at 4.0 pretty much the whole time (or at least each time I peeked at it) from T.O. till

we were clean. Still though, the out of trim force was gone (trimmed away by me).

 

When I looked again a few seconds later, the trim indicator had moved about 1.0 unit.

So maybe that is due to the fact that the FBW trim signal (trim ref speed change) first mives the elevator and thereafter it moved the stahiliser so things are flush again.

So it might take a while for the teim input to appear as a stabiliser position change.

 

anyway......I can look at that flight control page next time and see what happens but I am afraid I will not see much there either.

But I personally do not think 0.25 or 0.1 is the cause of the "all trim is being applied at once" discussion! (I still have to try and reproduce that finding by the way)

 

cheers.

Thanks Rob, that's a very interesting observation. It will be equally interesting to hear if you notice the EICAS pitch trim indication in flight is just as coarse. I wonder why Boeing made it like that? Older non FBW Boeings have stepless trim position indication.

 

I could understand why Boeing might want the trim setting on the aisle stand to work in quarter unit steps when you set takeoff trim, but it makes less sense for reading the control position on EICAS.

 

It would be interesting to hear from anyone who is using the Saitek X65F stick with the PMDG 777, or any airliner sim.

 

 

I recall Robin has the Saitek X65F Kevin. [3-2-1-Now]

 

He's having the same trouble as Rob.

 

 

I recall Robin has the Saitek X65F Kevin. [3-2-1-Now]

 

He's having the same trouble as Rob.

 

Very interesting. IIRC one of Robin's concerns was the way the trim movement came all at once. But this isn't so surprising when you remember it is the elevator is that is driven by the FBW system with the trim moving to null it out over the longer term.

 

How much force you need to pull on the Saitek stick for a given pitch input is presumably adjustable in its calibration so it could be increased to a representative level. If it isn't then the stick isn't much of a help.

Kevin, I must apologise, must be the heat in the UK at the moment...

 

I remember Robin used to have the X65F, not sure if he still has it and can test it on the 777. He's using the Thrustmaster Warthog now.

 

He switched to the Warthog when he developed a fetish for the DCS A10.

Hi,

 

I have the Warthog, and before it, the SideWinder 1 from way back! That stick lasted me 10 years.

 

I do have a T.16000 stick I can try to se if it makes any difference, but I can't see why it should.

 

To those apparently NOT having the problem of the FBW system waiting for the stick to be centered before applying the trim, can you please try this?

 

* Set the trim reference speed to 320 kts, but fly at 210 kts

* To fly straight and level will require a lot of back pressure (I think you will have sufficient elevator authority to do this)

* Holding straight and level with the control column only (stick back), hold it there and trim nose up

* As you trim, do ***** NOT ***** move the stick to center! Hold it where it was the entire time

 

Does the aircraft pitch up? For me, it does NOT.

 

Video of the flight control page as you perform this test would be perfect, then I can compare here.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

Oops sorry Robin. I was sure that back in our Just Flight days you and Magic Man had the X65F or equivalent.

Hi,

 

* Set the trim reference speed to 320 kts, but fly at 210 kts

* To fly straight and level will require a lot of back pressure (I think you will have sufficient elevator authority to do this)

* Holding straight and level with the control column only (stick back), hold it there and trim nose up

* As you trim, do ***** NOT ***** move the stick to center! Hold it where it was the entire time

 

Does the aircraft pitch up? For me, it does NOT.

 .

Confirmed.....and then not confirmed :-( ?

 

Tried it right after take off and that was exactly what happened

 

I displayed the FBW trim ref speed and the flight controls page as I tested.

On the flight control page you could see how STAB trim does not change at all as you trim.

STAB trim stayed at 3.5 units (flight control page) for ever while I was holding my yoke.

Then as I let go of the yoke, all trim was applied at once and STAB moved to about 4.5.

(I am still trying to find out if elevator authority changes during this or not (since that is how PMDG has decided to to simulate the out of trim feeling)......but I seem to be getting inconsistant results)

 

I think the fact that neither the elevator nor the STAB moves during trimming is the reason why we do not feel anything happening (because nothing IS in fact happening other than my yokes sensitivity, but that seems not adequate to give a good feel for trim forces). Seems, as I am still testing and trying to get used to things). The reason this system does not work for us is I think........we do not have an artificial feel unit!!

Because the real 777 trim pilot would feel this artificial feel reduce as he trims.

We need eiter artificial feel or an elevator/stab that moves during trimming (or a better effect of the elevator reduced authority simulation).

 

The " :-( " at the beginning of my post is because as I am now not abel to reproduce this behavior (still in the same flight). Now, when I do your experiment, the stabilizer DOES move while holding the yoke during trimming.

 

Go figure?!

Hmm - was the gear up or down when it failed to move? I have found a couple of times now the FBW can sometimes have an adverse reaction to gear operation, but this has been whilst the gear was in transit.

 

If the trim was operating as it should, then the pitch reaction (regardless of how it does it) should be the trigger to cause the control column to be moved in response to trim input. I know we can't feel forces, but the pitch reaction should still be there (the force in reality being a secondary effect of this).

 

Best regards,

Robin.

my experiment above was with gear and flaps up.

 

will try again later today.

 

 

* Set the trim reference speed to 320 kts, but fly at 210 kts

* To fly straight and level will require a lot of back pressure (I think you will have sufficient elevator authority to do this)

* Holding straight and level with the control column only (stick back), hold it there and trim nose up

* As you trim, do ***** NOT ***** move the stick to center! Hold it where it was the entire time

 

Does the aircraft pitch up? For me, it does NOT.

 

 

 

I confirm, the plane does not pitch up unless I center the control column. Tried it with 1% and 10% nullzone in the FMC.

I confirm, the plane does not pitch up unless I center the control column. Tried it with 1% and 10% nullzone in the FMC.

 

And also on my end. If flaps/gear are extended or not does not matter.

This behaviour is not SP1-related. At least I noticed that already without SP1.

 

Can somebody tell for sure if this is the way FBW trimming is supposed to work or not to work?

Will try this tonight on my system..

And also on my end. If flaps/gear are extended or not does not matter.

This behaviour is not SP1-related. At least I noticed that already without SP1.

 

Can somebody tell for sure if this is the way FBW trimming is supposed to work or not to work?

it is hard to say.

 

Sure thing is that trimming feels totally different in the real thing.

Out of trim force is supposed to reduce gradually as you use trim.

 

But, that is just force from an artificial force unit we are talking about!

 

Now the actual elevator and stabiliser position, what they do and when, I will have to take a look at on my next flight (tomorrow).

@Rob:

 

In the real aircraft, if you trim out the forces does the control column stay where you put it, or do you return it back to the mid-point?

 

Best regards,

Robin.

Robin,

 

When I fly at 210kt and then set the FBW trim ref speed to 330kt my yoke becomes extremely sensitive. Like 1 cm of yoke is all it takes to pitch up 10degrees!

And with that I only work within the first 1cm of yoke travel to stay level in 5000ft......very hard that way to not touch center at times......maybe that is why I see the stab moving sometimes.

 

When I fly at 250kt and set the FBW trim ref speed to 180kt my yoke becomes very sluggish.....insensitive.

 

At 210kt and in trim, my flight control page shows 5.0 units while on AP (AT disengaged).

I disconnect the AP.......trim stays at 5.00 units.

I now pull on the yoke (so I am not centered) and set FBW trim speed to 320kt.

As yoke sensitivety increases dramatically my pitch goes up and up faster and faster

(I though PMDG wrote that yoke sensitivity should DECREASE when out of trim???)

Stab trim has not changed one bit.

I let go of the yoke to prevent a stall.

Stab trim now gradually changes from 5.00 to 3.25.

 

I am now flying somewhat level in 5000ft....(difficult with oversensitive yoke), at 210kt but FBW trim speed at 320kt. I have to pull on the yoke just a little.

Stab trim still 3.25 units.

I now change FBW trim speed back to 210 kt.......the airplane does NOT pitch up!

Stab teim does move a little but most of the trim is applied once i let go of the yoke.

 

But what does that mean?

I am getting to the point where I agree with someone (Kyle) who said we are overthinking this.

So what does that mean?

 

I think that since the real airplane trim also only changes FBW trim speed when you trim, as a response moves the elevator and then finally set the Stabiliser flush (I will try to confirm on my next flight)......PMDG has decided to only move the FBW trim ref speed when you trim.

Not the elevator.

Thus, since we have no artificial feel unit, we do not feel a thing when we trim!

 

I said it before, we need an elevator deflection when we trim, or an artificial feel unit!

 

But I have no idea if that is possible when you try to simulate a FBW system in FSX.

 

I use the "cheat" FBW trim speed indication now and with that she flies quite nicely :-)

@Rob:

 

In the real aircraft, if you trim out the forces does the control column stay where you put it, or do you return it back to the mid-point?

 

Best regards,

Robin.

When you are in level flight you would have the controls centered.

Edit: sorry that is not right......pitch would be for level flight, the controls not centered when out of trim ofcourse.

 

When you are in trim in level flight, it .....EDIT......stays where you want it without you pushing/pulling, when you are out of trim it...... EDIT........(the aircrafts pitch) is held by you pushing or pulling.

If the yoke is not.....bla bla deleted.

 

So yes, when you trim the yoke goes back to center. (you are letting go as you trim).

 

 

pfffff what a mess, sorry about that.