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cmbaviator

how to hand fly with C*U law aircraft

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I also always tend to suggest a good reading of:

 

http://www.av8n.com/how/

 

and in particular in this case, this chapter. as well as this section

 

 

Thanks for the links, 

 

 

 

  • Push/pull motion of the yoke can be viewed as an extension of the trim wheel — just another way of controlling angle of attack. It is very difficult to stall the airplane unless you pull back on the yoke and/or apply lots of nose-up trim. This idea could save your neck.

     

 

Funny, I have always been thinking the other way around, trim (wheel) beeing the extension of the elevators / yoke.

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i don't how the blip trim enters into action in the real b777, but with PMDG, when your TRS is within 5 kts of your curent airpseed when you press the trim button, the blip trim enters into action, it will be better for example to give 2 trim tap within 300 ms to make the blip trim enters into action.

 

Blip trim was added from the real plane, using the real function.  Again, I think you're overthinking it.  The reason to use fine trim is to finely set it to the current speed.  With blip trim, it removes the guesswork in finding that sweet spot.

 

To me, it seems like you're just not used to it and therefore don't like it.

 

...then again, the FBW has noted issues in its current state, so that could be the issue.  This should be easier after SP1b is released.

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...then again, the FBW has noted issues in its current state, so that could be the issue. This should be easier after SP1b is released.

Easier is good :-)

 

I just posted a thread in which I described how recalibrating my yoke in Windows seems to have helped me a lot in regard to trimming.

 

Here:

 

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/448466-fixed-unresponsive-fbw-trim/

 

So far nobody has looked at it, lol, but I really think it could be something.

 

I could swear that on my last two flights the FBW trim speed worked better than ever!

* Set the trim reference speed to 320 kts, but fly at 210 kts

* To fly straight and level will require a lot of back pressure (I think you will have sufficient elevator authority to do this)

* Holding straight and level with the control column only (stick back), hold it there and trim nose up

* As you trim, do ***** NOT ***** move the stick to center! Hold it where it was the entire time

 

Does the aircraft pitch up? For me, it does NOT.

.

Robin, can you give my calibration idea a go?

 

Just re-calibrate your stick with the basic Windows game controller calibration tool and then try your exercise again.

 

I could swear that after recalibration I could feel out of trim forces dissappear while trimming. Maybe not perfect but a lot better as what I had before.....I just need to do more flights to confirm (and I am not at home) so maybe you can give it a shot in the mean time?

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Hi Rob. I will give it a go.

 

Can you also share your calibration settings in FSX? I'm asking because I don't know which settings are realistic.

(e.g. My sensitivity axes are almost full right and my null zones are all full left.)

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Hi Rob. I will give it a go.

 

Can you also share your calibration settings in FSX? I'm asking because I don't know which settings are realistic.

(e.g. My sensitivity axes are almost full right and my null zones are all full left.)

It will depend on your joystick, unless you have the same as Rob

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It will depend on your joystick, unless you have the same as Rob

 

I have the T.Flight Hotas X from Thrustmaster. If I remember correctly, Luke used or is still using the same joystick.

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@ 777simmer

 

How do you trim when changing speed :

 

let's say you want to reduce 210 kts to 180kts while flying level, will you , :

 

* 1 press the trim button for 3 sec ( trim reference speed is now set to 180kts )

 

* 2 press gradually the trim buttton until you get 180 sec.

 

because if i do 1, the plane will severly pitch up to reach the new trim reference speed, so I need to give lots of forward input to maintain the A/C level

 

with 2 it's hard because the blip trim enters in action each time so the trim reference speed barely moves and as the plane is decelerating, the A/C pitch down severly so i have to keep back pressure.

 

I found it to be more difficult to trim regarding with the NGX.

 

With the NGX when decelerating to 180ktsd from 210 kts, i just often tap the trim switch and I barely give input with the yoke to maintain level path....

 

CMB

 

EDIT :

 

By switching off the primary Flight Control ( PFC) thus in direct law, i found that trimming is easier jsut like the NGX


I have the T.Flight Hotas X from Thrustmaster. If I remember correctly, Luke used or is still using the same joystick.

 

What a coincidence, I have the same one :)

 

If you find a setting that works realistically please share with me :)

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Hi Rob. I will give it a go.

 

Can you also share your calibration settings in FSX? I'm asking because I don't know which settings are realistic.

(e.g. My sensitivity axes are almost full right and my null zones are all full left.)

We are talking about the same I hope right?

 

I mean calibrate your stick in Windows.....with the windows game controller tool (under control panel) or with the software provided with your hardware.

I dont have any software for my 20 year old yoke so I use the Windows game controller tool to calibrate.

neutral - click a button

full left/right/up/down - click

that stuff.

 

In FSX I have my sensitiveity to max, nullzones min and thereafter I disable the FSX joystick setting (no checkmark in FSX for enable).

So I dont think these settings matter at all for me, but just in case, I have set them that way.

 

Ann then I use FSUIPC to detect my yoke axis.

Like "axis elevator set" or "axis aileron set" and click sent DIRECT to FSX.

 

So neither FSX nor FSUIPC is doing any calibrating.

Only the Windows tool calibrates the way I use things.

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Problem is when we start looking at all of the variants, like aircraft with neutral pitch stability

 

Doesn't affect the basic principle. I'll bet you don't worry too much about positive/neutral/negative spiral stability do you?

 

The tailplane in a conventionally rigged aircraft is a lifting device like anything else. The "lift" produced by the tailplane pulls the tail down (the CoG on a conventional aircraft is ahead of the center of pressure and would result in nose drop if not corrected).

 

Think of the fuselage as a see-saw. Without the tail to balance the forces, the aircraft will simply pitch down. The tail provides a force in order to prevent the nose from dropping.

 

Regardless of whether we are talking about elevators, stabilators, canards, deltas, etc.., if you change a parameter (airspeed) then the lift generated will change, the forces required to maintain a given pitch attitude will change, and so you must re-trim the control forces for the new speed. This applies to any aircraft, regardless of how it is achieved.

 

Pitch stability (actually, longitudinal static stability) refers to how an aircraft will react if it encounters a pitch down disturbance.

 

Positive: it will pitch up with increasing airspeed

Neutral: it will neither pitch up nor down with increasing airspeed

Negative: it will pitch down even more with increasing airspeed.

 

Modern airliners are rigged to be neutral at worst, with most having some degree of positive longtitudinal stability. Negative stability is a feature of fighter aircraft, and require flight control computers to give the aircraft stability, otherwise it would be impossible for a human pilot to fly.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

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I found an issue with the FBW and trim. I'm going to try and bullet point this to make it as clear to understand as possible.

 

* Aircraft is OUT OF TRIM, and "nose heavy".

* I pull back on the control column to counter the out of trim condition

* Once I stabilized the pitch, I start trimming nose up, and returning the control column to center at the same time (same as on the NGX).

 

PROBLEM: the trim reference speed changes, but the trim is NOT applied until I return the control column to dead center, at which point ALL the trim change I made is applied at once, and if I got the trim wrong, the aircraft would then aggressively pitch relative to that out of trim condition.

 

The result is that I can't trim the aircraft by feel. If I don't have the trim reference speed displayed, it is virtually impossible to trim.

 

Seperately, the trim often either doesn't move, or even moves in the opposite direction to that selected.

 

Anyone else see this?

 

Best regards,

Robin.

 

I'm seeing exactly this, but thought it was common knowledge and addressed in SP1B..

 

The trim ref speed only is active when the joystick is in dead centre.. As soon as I apply any elevator, I feel no trim at all. (i can be 100knots out )

 

Alex

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but thought it was common knowledge and addressed in SP1B

 

PMDG tried the steps I posted and re-created the problem. Previously they didn't see the issue because of the way they were testing it. It should be fixed in SP1b, yes.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

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PMDG tried the steps I posted and re-created the problem. Previously they didn't see the issue because of the way they were testing it. It should be fixed in SP1b, yes.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

I am not so sure about that.

 

Ryan said he could reproduce your other example in one direction only.

And that with "trim reference speed below actual airspeed" everything worked fine!

 

Now in my PMDG777 SP1 nothing worked fine, not in either direction.

 

So that leads me to believe we are still talking about different problems.

 

And the fact that it seems that my PMDG777 SP1 is (now that that I have recalibrated my yoke) trimmable by feel now, only strengthens my believe that some problems are PMDG made (and are about to be improved) but others are caused by the users setup.

 

But unless some more guys here try to confirm or kill my calibration theory we will never know.

Which is why I ask again if you could please try if calibration helps on your system.

 

I will try to do some more flights as well to see if it was just wishfull thinking on my behalf or that trimming really did get better now.

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And the fact that it seems that my PMDG777 SP1 is (now that that I have recalibrated my yoke) trimmable by feel now, only strengthens my believe that some problems are PMDG made (and are about to be improved) but others are caused by the users setup.

If it's any help to you...

 

My calibration is absolutely basic.

 

FSX default calibration, simple as that, just set to default, nothing adjusted. No modifications to null zones in the CDU.

 

I don't seem to be having the issues you do Rob.

 

This is with a very old Microsoft sidewinder joystick. No drivers available for it.

 

Yes the trim is finicky and could do with fine tuning, but that's about it for me.

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If it's any help to you...My calibration is absolutely basic.FSX default calibration, simple as that, just set to default, nothing adjusted.

Same here Martin.

Better yet, I do not even use FSX for yoke detection......ENABLED is NOT ticked.

I don't seem to be having the issues you do Rob.

Same here Martin....I dont seem to be having the issues I had anymore either. That is what I am trying to say......maybe nothing is wrong with the PMDG....it could be our calibration that is causing this.

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Ryan said he could reproduce your other example in one direction only.

And that with "trim reference speed below actual airspeed" everything worked fine!

 

Now in my PMDG777 SP1 nothing worked fine, not in either direction.

 

Hmm. I tried the steps that Ryan sent me (trim ref below current airspeed) and it worked - as I trimmed I could feel the need to remove forward pressure whilst trimming, but it didn't work when the trim ref speed was faster.

 

I'm not entirely sure what calibration could do with it, either. Unless you have a stick that is not centered when you release it (fixed by creating a larger null zone) then I can't see how it can upset it.

 

I did determine why the trim was getting stuck though - it is related to stick position, airspeed, and whether the last trim operation used blip trim.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

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This is with a very old Microsoft sidewinder joystick. No drivers available for it.

Same here Martin......but I bet my yoke is even older than your sidewinder. I have a 20 year old ANALOG CHPro yoke. Not USB! To connect it to todays PCs I had to buy an Analog game controller port to digital USB converter!

 

No drivers available also which is why I am lucky the default Win7 driver has recognized it.

And thus I had to calibrate it in Windows.

 

and this is were people do not seem to follow me :-(

 

So far everybody keeps talking about those FSX sliders for nullzones and sensitivity.

I am not talking about that.

I do not use FSX calibration at all......my yoke is even disabled in FSX.

I am talking about calibrating the Yoke in Windows!......not FSX!

 

START

CONTROL PANEL

type GAME CONTROLLER in the search bar

and then in the window that opens, click your YOKE or STICK.

the CALIBRATE it there.

Yes the trim is finicky and could do with fine tuning, but that's about it for me.

Exactly.....that is what I would say now that my trimming seems to have improved so much!

 

(but I do need to still test a bit more before I dare make my conlusion final.)

I'm not entirely sure what calibration could do with it, either. Unless you have a stick that is not centered when you release it (fixed by creating a larger null zone) then I can't see how it can upset it.

 

My yoke is perfectly centered when released.......but it also has a mechanical trim wheel.

I never touch the trim wheel.....but if I would have touched the trim wheel accidently...even if it was just a tiny bit.... then that would have thrown off my nullzone!

 

And when I then recalibrated.....the nulzone would be good again.

 

So yes that could be a factor.

 

But the most important thing to learn from that is that calibration can fix it!

Which is why I urge people to give it a shot.

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my yoke is even disabled in FSX.

 

So you use FSUIPC to get the yoke to actually work in FSX?

 

Best regards,

Robin.

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I am not so sure about that.

 

Ryan said he could reproduce your other example in one direction only.

And that with "trim reference speed below actual airspeed" everything worked fine!

 

 

Now in my PMDG777 SP1 nothing worked fine, not in either direction.

 

 

So that leads me to believe we are still talking about different problems.

 

And the fact that it seems that my PMDG777 SP1 is (now that that I have recalibrated my yoke) trimmable by feel now, only strengthens my believe that some problems are PMDG made (and are about to be improved) but others are caused by the users setup.

 

But unless some more guys here try to confirm or kill my calibration theory we will never know.

Which is why I ask again if you could please try if calibration helps on your system.

 

I will try to do some more flights as well to see if it was just wishfull thinking on my behalf or that trimming really did get better now.

I can confirm mine because I had just created a new fsuipcprofile for 300er when it came out.And I have been constantly telling that it was working fine on my machine

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So you use FSUIPC to get the yoke to actually work in FSX?

 

Best regards,

Robin.

yes.

 

Normally FSUIPC would be used to assign the control axis....as in push/pull on yoke = elevator, but also to calibrate it in FSUIPC.

 

The PMDG777 does not like this for the trottle axis though....it causes problems when you calibrate the trotlles of the PMDG777 in FSUIPC.

The problem is, I HAVE to use FSUIPC to assign some of the buttons I have on my yoke to a key stroke.

And I have to use FSUIPC to use my brake pedals.

And I have to use FSUIPC to assign one of my axis to the spoilers.

Without FSUIPC all this would not work with the hardware I use.

 

So since I HAVE to use FSUIPC I also MUST deactivate the FSX controller settings.

By not putting a checkmark in Enable joysticks.

 

Now, in order to have as little problems with the PMDG777 as possible I routed as many axis as possible directly from FSUIPC to FSX.

So the axis is assIgned in FSUIPC (you gotta tell something somewhere that when you pull on the yoke that FSX must move the elevator) but then routed directly to FSX without any calibration taking place in FSUIPC.

 

The only calibration that takes place for those axis that go direct from FSUIPC to FSX is that of the default Windows driver

I will try to do some more flights as well to see if it was just wishfull thinking on my behalf or that trimming really did get better now.

Great news.....NOT.

 

Everything is out of wack again.

 

Trim is all over the place again, nothing works right.

So I looked at my trim wheel......and yep it is rotated by at least 45 degrees from where I had it before (neutral).

 

I asked the girlfriend.....yep she has been dusting and vacuuming around a bit.

Must have hit that trim wheel :-(

 

So the good thing is that this prooves that my trim wheel throws my calibration out of wack.

And with SP1 calibration seems to be more important than before.

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Calibration is step #1 on my checklist. Even with the two Joysticks I use, it takes less than a minute.

 

If you hit the calibrate button in the FSX controls settings, it does open the normal windows calibration.

I even calibrate in FSX before I use other games, as the Logitech driver removes the calibration from the windows control panel.

 

I just completed another test flight and am more and more getting used to the trim, but it's definitely not the same as in a Cessna or the 737 for me.

I flew the approach as I do it with the NGX (AP and AT are off), trim for VAPP and then (try to) stay on the glideslope by using throttle.

 

The plane seems to pitch up and down every few seconds (Possibly caused by FSX dynamic weather, turbulences or thermals? Will try without next time. ASN was off for this test.), to stay on the glideslope I sometimes have to move the throttle to 100% or back to idle.

 

I was on the glideslope down to 100 feet, never had a better approach before.

 

Do I use the correct technique? Pitch for speed and throttle for altitude? There seems to be a lot of discussion about that, even amongst real world pilots.

And would switching off the Primary Flight Computers to fly in direct law be allowed in normal real life operations? (i.e. could an airline write it is its SOPs?)

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Flight no. 2: Even better this time.

Final approach was very smooth.

It looks like too fast throttle movements caused the oscillations I had on the last flight.

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SP1b is here. I haven't had a chance to try it yet. For those that did, how's the hand flying now?

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Much better for me. Trim is smoother, flaring feels natural and the annoying pitch up when disconnecting the autopilot is gone...

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Short test flight from EGLL to LFPG, and there is a clear difference.  No need for the FBW trim ref speed nonsense.  Intuitive, fluid, its all there.  Well done guys, bloody well done.  Its 1 in the morning GMT and I want to take her out for another spin.  C*U in FSX...I am amazed. 

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