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Gregdpw

What Payware International Airport Would You Get First?

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I can't speak on behalf of FlightBeam and FSDT/C9 as I don't support products with unfriendly DRM but I'm told they're good too. I'm tempted to get KDEN but I will not as it's a matter of principle.

 

There's no more FRIENDLY DRM out there then what we use. Using the term "unfriendly", clearly indicates you are not aware how it works:

 

- You have 6 ACTIVATIONS per order, which is way more than any other similar system out there, including the very operating system you use to run any FSX product (Windows) that, as far as I know, don't give you as many activations with one license.

 

- The license is SHARED between all the supported sim, which means you can use the same license with FS9, FSX, Prepar3D and FSX:Steam Edition.

 

- You can Uninstall/Reinstall an UNLIMITED amount of times, you can even uninstall the whole host sim, and your activation of the scenery won't be affected at all.

 

- You can change hardware as many times as you have spare activations left ( 6 PER ORDER ), or install or entirely separate PCs. What you do with your 6 activations Is UP TO YOU, as long as you are the only user.

 

- You can DEACTIVATE a product on a system you don't plan to use anymore, which means you will NOT consume an activation when you reinstall on a new system. There's no limit how many times you can DEACTIVATE.

 

- Even if you consume all your 6 activation, because you FORGET to Deactivate (5 times in a row), there's also an automatic reclaim of older activations, if more than 90 days have passed from the last activation.

 

- The ONLY time you'll ever need to contact us for a manual reactivation, is when you are in the following situation:

 

1) You consumed ALL your 6 ACTIVATIONS

 

AND

 

2) Less than 90 days have passed since the last activation you got

 

AND

 

3) You NEVER used the DEACTIVATE feature before upgrading your hardware or moving to a different system

 

- ALL of 3 must be happening at the same time, before you'll ever need to contact us asking for a reactivation.

 

If you always use the Deactivate feature or, at least, you use it enough to always keep 1 spare activation, you can change hardware AND REACTIVATE on the new hardware FOREVER, with no intervention required.

 

I'm sorry, but there's no more friendly activation system out there that gives you more freedom to both use a product on multiple systems AND to allow you UNLIMITED hardware changes, you ONLY need to remember you can always DEACTIVATE with no limitations, and if you forget about it or something unexpected happens, that's what 6 activations are for: to cover for mistakes or hardware failures.

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There's no more FRIENDLY DRM out there then what we use. Using the term "unfriendly", clearly indicates you are not aware how it works:

 

- You have 6 ACTIVATIONS per order, which is way more than any other similar system out there, including the very operating system you use to run any FSX product (Windows) that, as far as I know, don't give you as many activations with one license.

 

- The license is SHARED between all the supported sim, which means you can use the same license with FS9, FSX, Prepar3D and FSX:Steam Edition.

 

- You can Uninstall/Reinstall an UNLIMITED amount of times, you can even uninstall the whole host sim, and your activation of the scenery won't be affected at all.

 

- You can change hardware as many times as you have spare activations left ( 6 PER ORDER ), or install or entirely separate PCs. What you do with your 6 activations Is UP TO YOU, as long as you are the only user.

 

- You can DEACTIVATE a product on a system you don't plan to use anymore, which means you will NOT consume an activation when you reinstall on a new system. There's no limit how many times you can DEACTIVATE.

 

- Even if you consume all your 6 activation, because you FORGET to Deactivate (5 times in a row), there's also an automatic reclaim of older activations, if more than 90 days have passed from the last activation.

 

- The ONLY time you'll ever need to contact us for a manual reactivation, is when you are in the following situation:

 

1) You consumed ALL your 6 ACTIVATIONS

 

AND

 

2) Less than 90 days have passed since the last activation you got

 

AND

 

3) You NEVER used the DEACTIVATE feature before upgrading your hardware or moving to a different system

 

- ALL of 3 must be happening at the same time, before you'll ever need to contact us asking for a reactivation.

 

If you always use the Deactivate feature or, at least, you use it enough to always keep 1 spare activation, you can change hardware AND REACTIVATE on the new hardware FOREVER, with no intervention required.

 

I'm sorry, but there's no more friendly activation system out there that gives you more freedom to both use a product on multiple systems AND to allow you UNLIMITED hardware changes, you ONLY need to remember you can always DEACTIVATE with no limitations, and if you forget about it or something unexpected happens, that's what 6 activations are for: to cover for mistakes or hardware failures.

 

I know how it works but DRM like eSellerate, Denuvo, Starforce etcera are not consumer friendly. I believe in protecting your intellectual properties but within reasons. There should never be a limit to x amount of activations, machine fingerprints, background processes, deactivation requirement or anything remotely close.

 

It's not a knock on your products, it's a knock on the DRM in use. Like I said, it's a matter of principle to me and always has been - just like I treasure online privacy and in real life.

 

Piracy cannot be defeated and studies show that DRM does more damage than good. Point in case, you lost me as a customer.

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I know how it works but DRM like eSellerate, Denuvo, Starforce etcera are not consumer friendly. I believe in protecting your intellectual properties but within reasons. There should never be a limit to x amount of activations, machine fingerprints, background processes, deactivation requirement or anything remotely close.

Wrong, both on a policy point of view AND on a technical point of view.

 

The activation limit is entirely irrelevant IF you have UNLIMITED DEACTIVATIONS. How, exactly, an activation limit "limits" your freedom of reinstall on new hardware, when you can Deactivate as many times as you want ?

 

From a technical point of view, it's just wrong to compare Esellerate to something like Starforce, and the very fact you are comparing them, clearly indicates you don't know how they work.

 

Starforce IS very invasive and installs its own drivers that constantly run in Windows.

 

Esellerate is NOTHING like that, there are NO "background processes", no drivers, nothing. If no software requiring Esellerate checks is running, NOTHING from Esellerate is running or taking memory from your system

 

The activation checks we do in FSX are made just ONCE, when FSX starts, and they take like a couple of milliseconds, and DO NOT require your system to be online. The ONLY time a brief online check is made, is when you change hardware, but other than that, after the licence check when starting up FSX, NOTHING is done by the program to do "DRM" while FSX is running.

 

It's not a knock on your products, it's a knock on the DRM in use. Like I said, it's a matter of principle to me and always has been - just like I treasure online privacy and in real life.

If it's a "matter of principle", then just Uninstall Windows, install Linux, get rid of your iPhone/iPad/iPod if you have one so you can stand by with your principles, because Windows uses an activation-based DRM, which is FAR more restrictive than our own, more stringent activation limit, and NO user-controlled Deactivations, and FSX use the same system too.

 

Piracy cannot be defeated and studies show that DRM does more damage than good. Point in case, you lost me as a customer.

If you are wrong about DRM, that doesn't make you a case in point. Studies has shown that too-restricting DRM might be useless if the thing you are selling is MASS MARKET because, with mass market, you might still make a lot of money even with an high rate of piracy.

 

And, professional products like 3DS Max or Photoshop, can afford some piracy, in order to establish them as an industry standard

 

FSX add-on market is NOT a Mass Market product, there is an inherent limit how many users we can reach, because the matter IS a very small niche market which means, getting rid of most of piracy can make the difference between breaking even OR NOT, which is why most of the add-on developers cannot afford to do this as their only full time job. But we do...for the past 22 years...

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Greg,

 

I dont know how critical it is from a time standpoint for the airport, but if you can wait a bit, Flightbeam is re-releasing KSFO. It will probably be excellent. Or buy CYVR now, KSFO when it comes out and fly up and down the coast :)

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Wrong, both on a policy point of view AND on a technical point of view.

 

The activation limit is entirely irrelevant IF you have UNLIMITED DEACTIVATIONS. How, exactly, an activation limit "limits" your freedom of reinstall on new hardware, when you can Deactivate as many times as you want ?

 

From a technical point of view, it's just wrong to compare Esellerate to something like Starforce, and the very fact you are comparing them, clearly indicates you don't know how they work.

 

Starforce IS very invasive and installs its own drivers that constantly run in Windows.

 

Esellerate is NOTHING like that, there are NO "background processes", no drivers, nothing. If no software requiring Esellerate checks is running, NOTHING from Esellerate is running or taking memory from your system

 

The activation checks we do in FSX are made just ONCE, when FSX starts, and they take like a couple of milliseconds, and DO NOT require your system to be online. The ONLY time a brief online check is made, is when you change hardware, but other than that, after the licence check when starting up FSX, NOTHING is done by the program to do "DRM" while FSX is running.

No, I'm not wrong. You're drawing conclusions here. I never said eSellerate was like Starforce. I said I don't like neither.

 

Again, I know how it all works (I'm a programmer myself) and thus why I don't condone taking such measures in protecting IP. eSellerate is different from say Starforce but it still creates a hw fingerprint and enforces consumers to take extra steps (deactivation/activation). You say it's friendly, I say it's inconvenient and unnecessary. Is it there for the consumers? No, it's there with anti-piracy in mind.

 

Convenient is; activate, boom, done. Permanently. That's convenient and consumer friendly.

 

At the end of the day, there is no right or wrong. If you believe DRM like eSellerate is the way to go, then by all means. I'll never support it and I have every right not to.

 

 

If it's a "matter of principle", then just Uninstall Windows, install Linux, get rid of your iPhone/iPad/iPod if you have one so you can stand by with your principles, because Windows uses an activation-based DRM, which is FAR more restrictive than our own, more stringent activation limit, and NO user-controlled Deactivations, and FSX use the same system too.

I don't support Apple and my Windows doesn't need registration. There are numerous ways to own a Windows license. But activations are perfectly okay, as long as there are no asterisks whatsoever.

 

If you are wrong about DRM, that doesn't make you a case in point. Studies has shown that too-restricting DRM might be useless if the thing you are selling is MASS MARKET because, with mass market, you might still make a lot of money even with an high rate of piracy.

 

And, professional products like 3DS Max or Photoshop, can afford some piracy, in order to establish them as an industry standard

 

FSX add-on market is NOT a Mass Market product, there is an inherent limit how many users we can reach, because the matter IS a very small niche market which means, getting rid of most of piracy can make the difference between breaking even OR NOT, which is why most of the add-on developers cannot afford to do this as their only full time job. But we do...for the past 22 years...

People pirate because they can't afford the products. I don't condone piracy, I'm in fact very much against it and support lite DRM.

 

That being said, the majority of people who pirate aren't potential customers so what little profit you gain from using DRM like eSellerate, you lose from alienating other customers. I've seen people complain about it on your forums and elsewhere, Virtuali. Do you really buy that customers jump in joy when they find out they have to deactivate a product? Hardly.

 

As for breaking even, other companies are getting by.

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eSellerate is different from say Starforce but it still creates a hw fingerprint and enforces consumers to take extra steps (deactivation/activation).

 

You say it's friendly. I say it's inconvenient and unnecessary.

 

 

Is it there for the consumers? No, it's there with anti-piracy in mind.

 

You are making it sound as if "just" creating an hardware fingerprint would be something bad by itself. It's WHAT you do with it that counts, and how the reinstall/hardware change policies based on it are made.

 

Friendliness in a DRM is measured in how much reinstall/hardware change freedom you have, and that our system is the most friendly around in this regard, it's a fact.

 

It's necessary and it's *obviously* less "convenient" than having no DRM to begin with. Do you have an example of a DRM that is as easy to use AS "NO DRM" ?

 

It's there for the consumers too.

 

- It allows for TRIAL VERSION. How many times you bought something for FSX that disappointed you ? Like buying it and discovering it has bad fps, or doesn't work well with other products ? Cannot happen with our system, because you download and install the same version you are going to buy, BEFORE purchasing it.

 

If there was no DRM, you would have a very limited Trial (if there is one) and you would have to jump to hoops in order to access the download, since it couldn't be made public with no DRM, and you would have to get limited access to support forum too, while our forum is free for anyone (even prospective customers), and you would have to find patches, because a developer not using DRM couldn't publish free full downloads as we do.

 

- Support forum accessible only to existing customers ? Not a problem with us.

 

- Expiring download links ? Not a problem with us.

 

- "Download insurance" to be paid in order to be able to re-download again in the following years ? Not a problem with us.

 

- Having to keep your download safe ? Not a problem with us.

 

ALL of these are CONVENIENT features for the customers. You just can't label the DRM as being "inconvenient", and at the same time not considering what other inconveniences you would have to undertake, in order to deal with something that doesn't have an efficient DRM and the convenience it brings, in exchange of the minor inconvenience of having to remember to Deactivate sometimes.

 

 

Convenient is; activate, boom, done. Permanently. That's convenient and consumer friendly.

 

Windows doesn't need registration.

That's exactly how it is. Activate, boom, done. And it's permanent until you change hardware, which is exactly like any other DRM out there.

 

If you change hardware, you can do it up to 5 times the "Activate, boom, done", before you will have to do something.

 

If you Deactivate before changing hardware, it won't ever be a problem.

 

If your Windows is an OEM version that came with the PC, it means if you cannot easily reactivate on a new system.

If your Windows is a Retail version, it can be reactivate on a new system, on far less friendly terms that what we do.

 

And what about your FSX ? It requires online or phone activation too.

 

People pirate because they can't afford the products. I don't condone piracy, I'm in fact very much against it and support lite DRM.

 

That being said, the majority of people who pirate aren't potential customers so what little profit you gain from using DRM like eSellerate, you lose from alienating other customers.

Then if it's true, you should be able to recognize a "lite DRM", when you see one. Instead, you put Esellerate and Starforce in the same list of DRMs you don't like, which seems to indicate you DON'T recognize a "lite DRM".

 

It's interesting how you could cite a "majority", without any data to back it up.

 

We DO have server data logs of people with failed activations trying to use blacklisted serial numbers. We have their IP and we can even cross-check the IPs with the people that subsequently BUY products.

 

And, believe it or not, the number of people that TRY to activate a blacklisted Serial Number are in the TENS OF THOUSANDS PER YEAR.

 

The ones that subsequently purchase a product are about THOUSANDS PER YEAR, and for a very small business like we are, it's A LOT.

 

I've seen people complain about it on your forums and elsewhere, Virtuali.

The very fact you CAN read our support forums without being a customer, it's another convenience you have, which is made possible because we don't have to resort to restricting support access to customer, because we can't be sure who's a customer and who's not, THANKS to our efficient DRM.

 

 

Do you really buy that customers jump in joy when they find out they have to deactivate a product? Hardly.

 

As for breaking even, other companies are getting by.

 It's fairly obvious that everybody would be happier with no DRM procedures, but the fact is, they ARE an establish necessarily evil in the gaming industry, and until you can suggest a way to cut piracy without ANY inconvenience, there's no way out.

 

Most of the other companies are just guys with FSX as their part-time job, so they are not really interested in breaking even in the first place.

 

Most of the professional companies, like PMDG or Captain Sim, DO USE some kind of DRM.

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Im getting a headache. You virtualli, and you danishflyer; have totally hijacked someone else's thread. Why don't you go outside and fight it out (as in start another thread and beat each other's brains out over there).

 

To the opening poster: Flightbeam, FSDT, FlyTampa (alphabetical order) rearely miss. The others are a little less consistent. Orbx doesn't do intl airports.

 

Best of luck.

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- It allows for TRIAL VERSION. How many times you bought something for FSX that disappointed you ? Like buying it and discovering it has bad fps, or doesn't work well with other products ? Cannot happen with our system, because you download and install the same version you are going to buy, BEFORE purchasing it.

 

If there was no DRM, you would have a very limited Trial (if there is one) and you would have to jump to hoops in order to access the download, since it couldn't be made public with no DRM, and you would have to get limited access to support forum too, while our forum is free for anyone (even prospective customers), and you would have to find patches, because a developer not using DRM couldn't publish free full downloads as we do.

I can appreciate a trial feature for software, sure, but that's irrelevant and strictly a business decision. You feel the services provided by eSellerate allows for a trial because it's within your comfort zone but that's YOUR PERSONAL feeling. We're seeing developers, big and small, releasing products with little to no DRM despite the fact that it is indeed a niche market.

 

And what about your FSX ? It requires online or phone activation too.

Activation is fine, I've said that all along.

 

Then if it's true, you should be able to recognize a "lite DRM", when you see one. Instead, you put Esellerate and Starforce in the same list of DRMs you don't like, which seems to indicate you DON'T recognize a "lite DRM".

 

Neither Starforce or eSellerate are lite DRM. Any form of fingerprints and stamps, background processes, encryption, limitations to activation uses or mandatory deactivation due to identifier being in use. It's all part of the newer generation of DRM which aren't considered lite.

 

The first generations of DRM began as a simple activation and I support that a hundred percent. Always have, always will.

 

 

It's interesting how you could cite a "majority", without any data to back it up.

 

I do actually. You even openly admitted it yourself.

 

Here's what you said and I quote;

 

a. believe it or not, the number of people that TRY to activate a blacklisted Serial Number are in the TENS OF THOUSANDS PER YEAR.

b. the ones that subsequently purchase a product are about THOUSANDS PER YEAR

 

I rest my case.

 

It's fairly obvious that everybody would be happier with no DRM procedures, but the fact is, they ARE an establish necessarily evil in the gaming industry, and until you can suggest a way to cut piracy without ANY inconvenience, there's no way out.

 

Most of the other companies are just guys with FSX as their part-time job, so they are not really interested in breaking even in the first place.

 

Most of the professional companies, like PMDG or Captain Sim, DO USE some kind of DRM.

I agree DRM is a necessary evil in the industry but like I said, within reasons. As a software developer, you will lose out no matter which approach you choose to take so put your customers first.

 

Virtuali, lets agree to disagree on to what extend DRM should be used. You can count me in as a customer if you ever change your DRM policies and I will personally buy some of the products through you to make good on my promise.

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I can appreciate a trial feature for software, sure, but that's irrelevant and strictly a business decision.

It's not irrelevant, it benefits customers, and it's a direct result of having a DRM working that way.

 

Activation is fine, I've said that all along.

 

Neither Starforce or eSellerate are lite DRM. Any form of fingerprints and stamps, background processes, encryption, limitations to activation uses or mandatory deactivation due to identifier being in use. It's all part of the newer generation of DRM which aren't considered lite.

 

The first generations of DRM began as a simple activation and I support that a hundred percent. Always have, always will.

Activation, by definition, requires some kind of tie-in of an hardware with a Serial Number, and that will use some kind of hardware identification so, you can't say you are in favor of the activation, by not of an hardware fingerprinting.

 

If with "fingerprinting" you are somewhat implying we get to know what hardware you have and all the issues related to privacy, that's not the case. We don't have the slightest idea about your hardware. It's just an hash so, if you are a programmer, you should know very well that, like a web site admin cannot decode your actual password from an hashed one stored on his server, we don't know anything about your hardware or your system, starting with the hash hardware fingerprint.

 

And no, Starforce is an heavy DRM, while Esellerate it IS a lite DRM, keep repeating they are similar won't make it any more true. They aren't, they don't have *anything* in common.

 

Esellerate is a library that is loaded on demand by an application and discarded automatically by Windows memory manager when the application is done with it, while Startforce is something that installs custom drivers which always run in the background even when the related software is not in use.

 

a. believe it or not, the number of people that TRY to activate a blacklisted Serial Number are in the TENS OF THOUSANDS PER YEAR.

b. the ones that subsequently purchase a product are about THOUSANDS PER YEAR

 

I rest my case.

Thousands sales more per year IT'S A LOT for us, and many FSX add-ons don't even reach them for their entire life. It might not be much for companies like Microsoft, but that's the main reason why they abandoned FSX to begin with, our market is VERY small, and some thousands of sales less/more might be the difference between being able to sustain a business or not. And as I've said, we sustained this business for the past 22 years, with the last 7 as FSDT, and most of us do this as their sole source of income to support them and their families. There aren't so many developers of FSX add-ons that can say the same.

 

I agree DRM is a necessary evil in the industry but like I said, within reasons.

And our DRM is the most reasonable around, because it gives the custom the largest freedom to handle its own hardware reinstallations.

 

Virtuali, lets agree to disagree on to what extend DRM should be used. You can count me in as a customer if you ever change your DRM policies and I will personally buy some of the products through you to make good on my promise

There's no reason to change "policies", because they are clearly the most user-friendly around. We can improve the EASE of use of the software, in fact we are always doing it, so your wrong impression of our DRM might have been based on comments from others based on old version, but today, it works exactly as you said it should: Insert your Serial Number, Activate, Done.

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It's not irrelevant, it benefits customers, and it's a direct result of having a DRM working that way.

It's COMPLETELY irrelevant because that's NOT why I have a problem with eSellerate. You're trying to turn this into a sales pitch and point out all the positives. Save it and let potential customers make their own decision. Most will not have a problem with it if the product itself is great and the ones who will aren't going to be won over by the arguments presented so far or your personal opinion on the matter, guaranteed.

 

A trial functionality can still be integrated into the code with little to no DRM at all. It all comes down to the comfort level of the publisher/developer and not the DRM. Don't pretend like it's only possible thanks to eSellerate, you as a programmer, should know better. From a technical standpoint, it is very much possible. Fact.

 

Stay on topic.

 

And no, Starforce is an heavy DRM, while Esellerate it IS a lite DRM, keep repeating they are similar won't make it any more true. They aren't, they don't have *anything* in common.

 

Esellerate is a library that is loaded on demand by an application and discarded automatically by Windows memory manager when the application is done with it, while Startforce is something that installs custom drivers which always run in the background even when the related software is not in use.

Why you compare Starforce to eSellerate is beyond me. I consider both unfriendly and inconvenient simply because, they are, to me. That doesn't mean they're one and the same in the way they function.

 

Do not put words in my mouth, thank you.

 

Thousands sales more per year IT'S A LOT for us, and many FSX add-ons don't even reach them for their entire life. It might not be much for companies like Microsoft, but that's the main reason why they abandoned FSX to begin with, our market is VERY small, and some thousands of sales less/more might be the difference between being able to sustain a business or not. And as I've said, we sustained this business for the past 22 years, with the last 7 as FSDT, and most of us do this as their sole source of income to support them and their families. There aren't so many developers of FSX add-ons that can say the same.

 

Great, but that wasn't the initial argument here which you've chosen to ignore.

 

It's common sense that the majority aren't would-be customers, well known AAA publishers have acknowledged as much, like CD Projekt RED. With the figures you brought forth earlier, I would say you've more than proved my point. Unless you can prove otherwise, there's not much else to say.

 

 

You're drawing conclusions all over the place. Nothing I've said so far is wrong, not a single thing. Our opinions differ, that's all there is to it. You don't have to respect mine (it makes no difference to me personally), but you will have to accept it, as I will accept yours.

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Stay on topic. What a wonderful idea! The topic of this thread is "What Payware International Airport Would You Get First".

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This has been started in August, so I guess the OP got an answer to his question. And since it got quite off topic only in the last few hours, I think it's best that this topic is closed.

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