Toga wrong time

[Heronjr 3]

Hi All,

 

I like to read real pilots' forums as I can learn lots of tricks and know about their difficulties with their equipment, mostly very similar in our virtual world. There is a very interesting discussion I read recently about to keep or not to keep the autothrottle armed after engines on. There is really a risk to blow a Boeing in the terminal building if someone pushes inadvertently the TOGA button.

 

Coincidence or not, this night I flew my T7 Cargo to TJSJ San Juan Puerto Rico, and after a very nice flight, approach and landing at rwy 08, as I cleared the active, instead of using the landing lights on/off button, I used the TOGA button, as both are close each other in my Saitek yoke. The beast reacted imediatelly advancing the throttles, urging for a takeoff.

 

Now I ask: are there conditions for TOGA be turned on? In the B767, there should be takeoff flaps or glideslope captured. What about our T7? Should we turn off autothrottle after landing? I don't think so because there is recommendation from the manuals in keeping them on all the time.

 

Is there any A/T option in the PMDG FMC options that I messed?

 

Anyway, guys, what do you say about this subject?

 

Thanks and regards,

 

Heron

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

Anyway, guys, what do you say about this subject?

 

In the real plane, the TO/GA switch is nowhere near the landing light switch.  Your own hardware setup should mimic this.  The issue you're running into is the same issue that flight deck designers run into in their day jobs: human factors.  Don't put crucial functions in confusing locations.

[Heronjr 3]

Hi Kyle,

 

I know I made a mistake about the location of both buttons too near, but that was an exercise and I intend to redraw may Saitek buttons. Please, google "pprune auto-throttle lethal potential" for an instigating reading about what real pilots think thru this matter. Anyway, I was just asking if are there options or conditions in which the TOGA button is enabled/disabled.

 

I found at FCOM2 page 4.10.19:

 

"TO/GA Switches - On the ground - Push - below 50 knots and flaps out of up, activates autothrottle in THR REF mode at reference thrust limit selected on THRUST LIMIT page. If not pushed below 50 knots, autothrottle operation is inhibited until reaching 400 feet altitude."

 

So, my conclusion is that I may not had flaps definitely up, or they were still working their way up when I pressed TO/GA.

 

Regards,

 

Heron

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

Please, google "pprune auto-throttle lethal potential" for an instigating reading about what real pilots think thru this matter.

 

I honestly don't spend much time on those sites, both fortunately and unfortunately.  The unfortunate side is that I don't pick up some cool information that's shared there.  The fortunate side is that I don't have to deal with (as much) posturing and complete asinine ranting.

 

Even as an enthusiast of ATC, I don't spend time at StuckMic.  All of the main industry boards seem to be all about "only real airline pilots are worthy, only current controllers are worthy, and if you're a current FAA OTS hire, I hate you."  I'm not about that.

 

So, I'm sure there's a discussion out there about TO/GA, but I'm not particularly interested in it.  If you're truly concerned about inadvertent TO/GA presses, turn A/T off.  Otherwise, use diligence in avoiding the switches (which isn't too hard, honestly).  Simple.

 

 

 

So, my conclusion is that I may not had flaps definitely up, or they were still working their way up when I pressed TO/GA.

 

People generally pull the flaps up when clearing the runway, so my bet is that they were up.

 

Pro tip: turn off all forward-facing lights (landing, taxi, runway turnoff) prior to turning toward the gate.  Your landing lights should've been off much sooner, honestly.

[tcas_climb 45]

If for some weird reason in the real world a pilot does accidentally trigger the toga switch, he would already have the throttle in his hands and therefore would be able to instinctively override the throttle lever servos from advancing the throttle and simultaneously disconnect the auto throttle.

 

Airline procedures may differ but some Airlines may suggest arming the auto throttle at the gate during preflight

[Capt Speirs 52]

Hi All,

 

I like to read real pilots' forums as I can learn lots of tricks and know about their difficulties with their equipment, mostly very similar in our virtual world. There is a very interesting discussion I read recently about to keep or not to keep the autothrottle armed after engines on. There is really a risk to blow a Boeing in the terminal building if someone pushes inadvertently the TOGA button.

 

Coincidence or not, this night I flew my T7 Cargo to TJSJ San Juan Puerto Rico, and after a very nice flight, approach and landing at rwy 08, as I cleared the active, instead of using the landing lights on/off button, I used the TOGA button, as both are close each other in my Saitek yoke. The beast reacted imediatelly advancing the throttles, urging for a takeoff.

 

Now I ask: are there conditions for TOGA be turned on? In the B767, there should be takeoff flaps or glideslope captured. What about our T7? Should we turn off autothrottle after landing? I don't think so because there is recommendation from the manuals in keeping them on all the time.

 

Is there any A/T option in the PMDG FMC options that I messed?

 

Anyway, guys, what do you say about this subject?

 

Thanks and regards,

 

Heron

 

I don't know what the panic is, the T7 takes forever to spool up from idle or less than 50% and with the "Parking Brake" on you have plenty of time to grab the throttles and kill it. I'm with Kyle, you need to emulate the real cockpit as much as possible to avoid fumbles like that.

[FLEX1978 373]

Quite a few years back a near stall incident occurred when the PF of a Cathay 744 accidentally hit TOGA instead of A/T disconnect on approach. 

 

I'll have to try and dig up the details, an SQ direct entry 744 captain mentioned it to me while ago. 

[bjratchf 80]

1) If the automation doesn't do what you want it to, disconnect it. (aka, pulling "an Asiana").

2) Know how to disconnect your automation. 

[Fabo 213]

 

 

1) If the automation doesn't do what you want it to, disconnect it.

 

AKA: It's just an overgrown Seneca anyway.

 

I second this notion.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

1) If the automation doesn't do what you want it to, disconnect it.

 

Bingo.  Reminds me of that Children of the Magenta video.

 

"What's the most frequent phrase used in flying the 757 and 767?"

"What the heck is it doing now...?"

*click click* *click click* my airplane.  Step down the levels of automation to handle the situation.

[FLEX1978 373]

I think some are missing the point here. The OP is talking about 'accidentally' hitting TO/GA. 

 

I only had access to a few airlines internal reports, on the 744 alone you will find incidents of flight crew accidentally engaging TOGA on the ground during taxi, also as mentioned previously,  Cathay had a major incident on approach.  Am sure many other incidents have occurred on approach that have remained internal to the operator.

 

It takes around 9 seconds to reach TOGA, if engaged accidentally  a few of those seconds is spent figuring out what the heck is going on.    

 

All true saying click click disconnect...  (That AA video get's overused..), but trust me it can take you by surprise if the aircraft suddenly goes to full rated thrust...  It's not the same as the aircraft incorrectly following LNAV/VNAV  or the flight crew over relying on automation.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

All true saying click click disconnect... or avoid having both guy's heads down (That AA video get's overused..), but trust me it can take you by surprise if the aircraft suddenly goes to full rated thrust...  It's not the same as the aircraft incorrectly following LNAV/VNAV  or the flight crew over relying on automation.

 

I'm no line pilot, but if you fail to recognize your engines spooling up without your authority, I'd assert you're in the wrong job.

 

It's not as common as recognizing that the aircraft isn't following LNAV/VNAV, but it's exactly the same:

The airplane is doing something it's not supposed to do because of automation.

 

I was taught to always have my hand on the throttle when the plane is under my control.  If A/T is armed but not on, I'm still under control.  As such, I should be head up, hand on the controls (or at least near them with a keen eye on how the aircraft is behaving).  You'd be hard pressed to miss that.

[FLEX1978 373]

I'm no line pilot, but if you fail to recognize your engines spooling up without your authority, I'd assert you're in the wrong job.

 

Kyle, I'm not saying anyone has failed to notice the engines spooling up...  Myself and the OP are talking about an accidental engagement of TOGA in an unusual situation.  Trust me, 40000 hour senior captains have done it by accident.

 

Let's also take a look at the 777 A/P logic, experienced flight crew engaging the A/P on the ground while thinking they had actually armed the A/T.  It took over 4 incidents (2 of them nearly fatal)  before Boeing changed the A/P logic. I am not saying anything is wrong with the A/T logic!  Just saying that  as long as humans fly these machines mistakes will happen.  

 

I have never understood why the A/T needs to be armed on the ground unless on an active runway where TO/GA is required.  Many will say it is just an accident waiting to happen, I tend to agree. 

 

That AA video has always been about simplifying things and downgrading or eliminating automation when under pressure. The issue of accidentally engaging the A/P or A/T is more about eliminating the possibility of it happening in the first place.  

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

Many will say it is just an accident waiting to happen, I tend to agree. 

 

Getting out of bed is an accident waiting to happen.  It's all about mitigation and management.  One method of mitigation is to disarm the A/T.  Another would be to just simply be more vigilant.

 

I'm not saying one is right or wrong.  I prefer to leave it on and simply remain vigilant about ensuring I don't trigger anything.

 

Riding a road bike for as long as I do, I open myself up to being stranded by some mechanical issue.  I safeguard myself against being stranded by carrying my phone on me along with extra tubes.  Of course, I could also ride the same distance by riding laps around my neighborhood to avoid carrying my phone and extra tubes.  Same end result - different methods.  It's all about the risks and mitigation strategies you're willing to accept and use.

[3-2-1-Now 126]

If you're accidentally hitting TOGA in the real thing, you need to ask why your fingers are wrapped around them in the first place (poor operating procedure).

 

On most aircraft, it is no small matter to operate TOGA. Even deliberate engagement requires effort, due to the intentional location of them.

 

I suppose these same pilots accidentally take reverse, too?

 

Best regards,

Robin.