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Heronjr

Toga wrong time

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I agree completely :)  You only have to take a look at the wildly varying company SOP's to realize that what is seen as a potential threat to one set of management is considered a non issue to another set.  

 

Anyway, I just though it was an interesting subject that the OP brought up, something that I have seen discussed many times in the past. No big deal, until someone get's sucked into an engine during a cross bleed start or an aircraft is involved in a prang :/    I know  I know,  highly unlikely! :)

 

Cheers


If you're accidentally hitting TOGA in the real thing, you need to ask why your fingers are wrapped around them in the first place (poor operating procedure).

 

On most aircraft, it is no small matter to operate TOGA. Even deliberate engagement requires effort, due to the intentional location of them.

 

I suppose these same pilots accidentally take reverse, too?

 

Best regards,

Robin.

 

Robin, I know one of the guy's that have made that mistake on the 744, he probably has more heavy jet experience than everyone here combined. Mistakes happen... please don't judge from the comfort of your office whilst playing FSX 

 

Take a look at most airlines internal reports and you will see it happens across most fleets, be it hitting TOGA when you want A/T disconnect or vice versa, or your palm accidently pushing against the TO/GA button during taxi.

 

As member of the flight crew it is about how you deal with & learn from a human error.

 

Once you have flown a 14 day block with minimum crew rest on a heavy jet then you can judge...


Rob Prest

 

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he probably has more heavy jet experience than everyone here combined. Accident's happen...

 

And this is why I always run on with "experience is only worth so much."

 

Heck, experience, in many cases, can bring about complacency.  Instead of not judging, I think it's a prime example of why people should be acutely aware of the experience issue.

 

I don't give a [darn] about how many hours you have.  I - and everyone else in the community - need you to be on your game, paying attention, and attempting in every way possible to avoid accidents.

 

I don't understand why we should withhold judgment simply because the person "had a bunch of experience."

 

 

 

So did the KLM captain on the Tenerife flight.  Are we to withhold judgment that he made the wrong call to go when he didn't have a clear takeoff clearance?  I think not.


Kyle Rodgers

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I am quite surprised at your comments Kyle. In no way am I stating that having a huge amount of hours makes you immune to mistakes or some kind of god.  The Captain of the KLM jet made a blatant mistake and did not follow procedure.  That incident has nothing to do with accidentally engaging a mode and then swiftly correcting the situation.

 

You guy's are failing to understand that accidental engagement of TO/GA  is a genuine concern among many flight crew, it is something that can be easily done on certain types. It is also an issue that has been brought up among 744 crew dating from a good while back. 

 

I would be interested in reading the topic that the OP mentioned on pprune, It does not surprise me that many still bring up the subject. 

 

Anyway, this is why i don't like posting here much anymore, flight simmers with zero heavy jet time yet they think they are experts on what line flying is really like. 

 

I mentioned this individuals experience to demonstrate that even with a huge amount of hours and a flawless record you can still make mistakes.  


Rob Prest

 

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flight simmers with zero ... time yet they think they are experts on what line flying is really like.

 

This is a big mistake to make. The first, is to assume that "flight simmers" have no real-world aviation experience. The second, is to assume that because they are "flight simmers", they don't know anything about flying, operations, or procedures.

 

It's as bad as some real-world pilots becoming complancent, or just being out-right arrogant because they "do it for real".

 

What Kyle said is absolutely true. When you think about it, having 30,000 hours does not make you better! You could have 30,000 hours of clear blue skies, calm winds, and 30,000 hours of flights where nothing ever goes wrong.

 

...or you could be the 1,000 hour guy who had 2 engine failures, in flight fire, flight control failure, flew in the worst storm in history (through no fault of their own), at night, *but lived to tell about it*.

 

I'd take the 1,000 hour guy.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

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I am quite surprised at your comments Kyle. In no way am I stating that having a huge amount of hours makes you immune to mistakes or some kind of god.  The Captain of the KLM jet made a blatant mistake and did not follow procedure.  That incident has nothing to do with accidentally engaging a mode and then swiftly correcting the situation.

 

Anyway, this is why i don't like posting here much anymore, flight simmers with zero heavy jet time yet they think they are experts on what line flying is really like. 

 

I mentioned this individuals experience to demonstrate that even with a huge amount of hours and a flawless record you can still make mistakes.

 

 

Rob, clearly you've dented Kyle's ego, with your real world knowledge and experience in this thread - it's clear for everyone to see that, from Kyle's last few posts.    

 

Seriously Kyle, give the arrogance a break some times!  I'm only saying what a lot of other people are thinking.... It's just embarrasing how spoilt and petulant you get some times.

 

I don't think you've said anything unreasonable, outrageous or unwise Rob, so I wouldn't be unduly upset by the frosty response you're getting from Mr Rodgers.   :wink:     

 

He just wasn't able to be the 'hero' on this thread, or to have his fan club of jesters, give him the usual nauseating attention.

 

[/truth]

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This is a big mistake to make. The first, is to assume that "flight simmers" have no real-world aviation experience. The second, is to assume that because they are "flight simmers", they don't know anything about flying, operations, or procedures.

 

Reread my post above regarding hours and experience. Secondly, how much experience do you have flying LH & ULH on the 744 & 777?  I guess I must have got you wrong since you are an expert on the fatigue and pressure involved.

 

guy's hold up... I am in no way trying to create an issue with Kyle, I actually have a huge amount of respect for the guy. Just trying to have a debate here.  


Rob Prest

 

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guy's hold up... I am in no way trying to create an issue with Kyle, I actually have a huge amount of respect for the guy. Just trying to have a debate here.  

 

That's cool Rob, and for some of us, that debate in no way changes how sickening it is sometimes to see Kyle's ever increasing ego and arrogance; talking to people like they're kindergarten age, and he's the fount of all knowledge.      I'm just calling the guy out here;  because it's justified.

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Any job can involve pressure and fatigue. Sure, if a pilot screws up, then lives are at stake, but this is no different for a myriad of other occupational areas.

 

Flight experience of a 777 or 747 is largely irrelevent. They involve many hours of sitting at cruise altitude, with the odd radio call and flight progress checks, but otherwise, not much is going on. If you fly short-haul on a small turboprop then you'd have far more flight experience than a long-haul pilot.

 

Several long-haul pilots I know do 2 landings and takeoffs in 4 days duty period. Compare that with the guys doing 6 sector days short-haul - they would do 48 takeoffs and landings in the same period.

 

A little perspective doesn't hurt...

 

Best regards,

Robin.

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Any job can involve pressure and fatigue. Sure, if a pilot screws up, then lives are at stake, but this is no different for a myriad of other occupational areas.

 

Flight experience of a 777 or 747 is largely irrelevent. They involve many hours of sitting at cruise altitude, with the odd radio call and flight progress checks, but otherwise, not much is going on. If you fly short-haul on a small turboprop then you'd have far more flight experience than a long-haul pilot.

 

Several long-haul pilots I know do 2 landings and takeoffs in 4 days duty period. Compare that with the guys doing 6 sector days short-haul - they would do 48 takeoffs and landings in the same period.

 

A little perspective doesn't hurt...

 

Best regards,

Robin.

 

Robin,

 

It does not matter if you are doing 4 sector puddle jumps in a prop, or you are flying Dubai to Brazil followed by a couple of short hops in Brazil then ULH back to Dubai.  At the end of the day you are likely flying for a company that will make you work up to the max.

 

ULH guy's tend to find it more difficult due to part of the rest being enroute in a cramped crew rest area.

 

Fatigue is fatigue and minimum legal rest is minimum legal rest..  We are humans, and when fatigued we can make mistakes.  

 

Once again, as humans it is how you handle those mistakes that saves you from becoming a statistic.

 

Anyway, I can see where this whole topic is heading so I am going to 'Carefully' pull the eject handle, don't wanna engage reheat by mistake :) 


Rob Prest

 

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Bingo.  Reminds me of that Children of the Magenta video.

 

"What's the most frequent phrase used in flying the 757 and 767?"

"What the heck is it doing now...?"

*click click* *click click* my airplane.  Step down the levels of automation to handle the situation.

 

Bravo Kyle, hit the nail on the head. Great video.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0rYX-Jn6o8

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I am quite surprised at your comments Kyle. In no way am I stating that having a huge amount of hours makes you immune to mistakes or some kind of god.  The Captain of the KLM jet made a blatant mistake and did not follow procedure.  That incident has nothing to do with accidentally engaging a mode and then swiftly correcting the situation.

 

You guy's are failing to understand that accidental engagement of TO/GA  is a genuine concern among many flight crew, it is something that can be easily done on certain types. It is also an issue that has been brought up among 744 crew dating from a good while back. 

 

I would be interested in reading the topic that the OP mentioned on pprune, It does not surprise me that many still bring up the subject. 

 

Anyway, this is why i don't like posting here much anymore, flight simmers with zero heavy jet time yet they think they are experts on what line flying is really like. 

 

I mentioned this individuals experience to demonstrate that even with a huge amount of hours and a flawless record you can still make mistakes.  

 

I was just confused as to why there was a mention of the person with more heavy jet experience than everyone here combined.  I simply used it as a counter point that people with loads of hours are wholly knowledgeable, and their concerns are therefore more relevant.  I'd agree with giving the opinion a little more credit because that person has been around the concerning practice/object/etc, but I did want to put it out there that it shouldn't just be flatly accepted since the person has a bunch of experience.

 

More often than not, I'm just playing devil's advocate, honestly.

 

You're absolutely right about the simmer experts part (I've been guilty on more than one occasion).  I have no experience actually using the 747 and 777 (even in a sim - biggest for me has been a CRJ2 and CRJ2 FTD, and you can add in a 737 if we're not talking FAA-certed).  The CRJ2 TOGA is where the Boeing A/T disco switch it, and I could definitely see that one getting an accidental push (though in the CRJ2, TO/GA just sets the pitch ref bars and that's it, so it's not a ground safety issue).  The 777 seems less likely to get hit, but that's only my external analysis (from a human factors standpoint).  If a whole bunch of pilots actually came out and said "it's a constant worry," I'd agree with them, but I still don't see an overwhelming consensus.

 

Rob, clearly you've dented Kyle's ego, with your real world knowledge and experience in this thread - it's clear for everyone to see that, from Kyle's last few posts.    

 

Seriously Kyle, give the arrogance a break some times!  I'm only saying what a lot of other people are thinking.... It's just embarrasing how spoilt and petulant you get some times.

 

I don't think you've said anything unreasonable, outrageous or unwise Rob, so I wouldn't be unduly upset by the frosty response you're getting from Mr Rodgers.   :wink:     

 

He just wasn't able to be the 'hero' on this thread, or to have his fan club of jesters, give him the usual nauseating attention.

 

[/truth]

 

Craig - I really don't know what your issue is, but you can put the axe away, because neither of us are going to give in to your "encouragement" to use it.  As Rob mentioned, he and I have a rather good amount of respect for each other.  Debates are healthy.  Sometimes, I maintain my stance and someone finally sees a different perspective.  Other times, other people maintain their stances and I begin to see a new side to an issue I hadn't seen before.  Heck, Kevin and I go at it, too, from time to time, but in the end, he and I both realize that at least one of us learned something, or had been overlooking something.

 

Oddly enough - and I don't know where you get your "facts" and or "truth" - but I have a ton of real world knowledge gained from working all kinds of jobs in the industry.  In many cases, that knowledge goes beyond a lot of the Part 121 (and international equivalent) airline guys.  Flying the planes is only one of the many facets of aviation.  To claim that I'm getting a bruised ego from someone who's using experience with flying planes in a discussion about operating said planes is a little over the top.

 

The idea that Rob using real world evidence to support his argument is more of a tactic of good debate and not something that would dent my ego.

 

I do like how you take it upon yourself to be the official voice of the apparently voiceless, though.  Very noble of you.  Sounds a little more like you want to be the same 'hero' in this thread that you're accusing me of trying to be, except the 'hero' for taking down the mean-old-baddie who's really only providing counter points as part of a debate.

 

That's cool Rob, and for some of us, that debate in no way changes how sickening it is sometimes to see Kyle's ever increasing ego and arrogance; talking to people like they're kindergarten age, and he's the fount of all knowledge.      I'm just calling the guy out here;  because it's justified.

 

You know, just for a second, you should probably take a look at your own posts before coming after me for being egoistic and arrogant.

 

Sure, there have been times that where I have come across with a little too much ego, in a thread that was above my head and out of my league.  This is not one of them, though.

 

Good for you though.  You totally told me.  I'm gonna go sulk in the corner because you "called me out" now...


Kyle Rodgers

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One of the first lessons of CRM I used to teach... always be open to the input of others, no matter the experience level! 

 

A lesson well learned, and taught, by Al Haynes (United 232)


Brendan R, KDXR PHNL KJFK

Type rated: SF34 / DH8 (Q400) / DC9 717 MD-88/ B767 (CFI/II/MEI/ATP)

Majestic Software Q400 Beta Team / Pilot Consultant / Twitter @violinvelocity

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Gents,

 

Thanks for all the contribution to my topic. And apologies if the subject turned virtually a hot red button accidentally pressed. As some of you understood correctly (thanks again!), my question was simple: Is there in the T7 any logic behind the A/T system in order to prevent such accident on ground? Flaps configuration? GS captured?

 

Yes? Which is it? Simple as that.

 

I was immediately admonished for my restless finger!

 

The next day I tried to press TO/GA during taxi with flaps up and it was refused with bells and whistles due to T/O wrong configuration. So, as I concluded initially, I guess my flaps were still on their way up when I pressed the [darn] button.

 

But, as the discussion took the human factor course, here is my position:

 

If someone intends to learn more about the not the slightest romantic pilot's daily (and nightly) routine, online libraries are full of nonfiction books in which, in most of them, you will find facts creepier than accidentally pressed buttons. Freely, tenths of pilots' forums are full of good discussions. Otherwise, if you don't like to read, just don't read and never say "I didn't read it and I didn't like it!".

 

North American pilots are those who are most pressed due to wrung schedules and bad weather. South Americans have to live with bad ATC. Heavy traffic in Europe. No matter what we think, pilots are humans and will keep making mistakes. Because of that, from time to time they go to a simulator where they are nearly tortured. The difference between a 30,000 hours pilot and a 1,000 is the emergency expertise due to training and not by the time spent looking at the sky, clouds and stewardesses.

 

In some 15 to 20 years, the copilot will be fired and changed for a ferocious dog that will prevent the Captain to touch the few remaining buttons.

 

Best Regards,


Heron Domingues, Jr

Intel Core I7 10700KF, 3.80GHz (5.10GHz Turbo), Gigabyte B460, RAM 32GB, Corsair 750W, GPU Palit RTX 3060, Windows 10 Pro 64., P3Dv5.4.

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