Still Trim issues with Sp1b

[scandinavian13 5,192]

what??

 

It's a common cheat code from "back in the day" (though I'm sure some will object to my use of "back in the day" because it wasn't as back in the day as pong, or the heyday of ATARI).

 

I was just making a joke about your use of "cheat mode" by referencing the "Konami code."

[777simmer 117]

It's a common cheat code from "back in the day" (though I'm sure some will object to my use of "back in the day" because it wasn't as back in the day as pong, or the heyday of ATARI).

 

I was just making a joke about your use of "cheat mode" by referencing the "Konami code."

Ok I never really played much games so I did not know what your symbols meant.

I know there are cheat modes for all kinds of PS games but like I said....never played much.

 

There was one game I would play with my best friend (highschool) that I thought was fantastic.

Boulderdash on the Amiga 500 :-)

[aceridgey 330]

Thanks Ryan for clearing up my theory, I am glad I understood it correctly and that is how the aircraft is behaving 

 

I can't believe the aircraft physcially deflects the elevators to chase the trim speed.

 

I guess the system needs a tiny fine tune but it looks like it's getting there :-) 

 

Alex

[Arnold Bruce 0]

If you're releasing your controls and there's no response from the path/speed following mode or it takes a long time for it to respond, you've got joystick input still going into the sim somehow that it's reading as pilot input. That's what the control column null zone option in the simulation options is for - increase it. I would set a larger actual null zone on your joystick in the FSX options and/or in the joystick's driver control panel as well.

 

 

 

Oh and Kevin - the real airplane actually does allow you to input trim opposite the direction of yoke deflection. We had this tried in the real airplane by someone we trust completely and he confirmed it. The limitation with it is that the stabilizer itself cannot move in this situation - the elevator however can and does. It just won't be offloaded/streamlined until after the yoke deflection is released. This is all modeled in SP1.

 

 

 

Ryan, changing null zones in FSX's controller calibration menu and/or PMDG's 777 CDU menu option has no effect on the issue of trim reference speed not taking effect until controls are manually relaxed/neutralized by the user.     I'm sorry but you do not know what you are talking about.     The issue of erratic manual pitch trim  with 777 is solely a result of coding error on PMDG's side, and has been from the very beginning.     Pitch trim on the 777 should work as intuitively as it does on the 737NGX from the user perspective, but the two sims are very different animals in this regard.     This should not be happening.    

 

A trim reference speed 'cheat' should not be required on the 777 any more than it would be on the 737NGX, but it is currently an absolute necessity for consistent, predictable, and precise manual trimming.     For that matter, why was PMDG compelled to even include this 'cheat' in the SP1 update unless they anticipated that 777 users would be having problems otherwise?     Again, this cheat should not be necessary at all if the manual trim behavior were functioning correctly.  

 

Can PMDG just please stop denying there is a problem and instead work on resolving the issue with another update?

 

Signed,

 

Arnold Bruce

[whoispankaj 51]

 

 

A trim reference speed 'cheat' should not be required on the 777 any more than it would be on the 737NGX, but it is currently an absolute necessity for consistent, predictable, and precise manual trimming

I haven't used  the cheat mode to trim the airplane after SP1B update. The trim just works fine for me..

[Arnold Bruce 0]

I haven't used the cheat mode to trim the airplane after SP1B update. The trim just works fine for me..

 

Pankaj, would you be able to post a video of yourself manually flying from takeoff to cruise altitude, or even just keeping the aircraft in Flight Director mode and manually trimming for an initial 250 knot climb after passing acceleration height?    

 

Signed,

 

Bruce Arnold

[whoispankaj 51]

Hi Arnold.

 

I have taken this in-game video of me taking off from KIAH and climbing to 34000ft with A/T on. I am not good at taking videos. Hence you will see some jerks in the video trying to locate my keyboard .I was a little conscious since its my first video after a long time.But I think you basically get the point that it is very much possible to trim it entirely by feel.It will take practice to make it perfect.I have flown after a long time so you will see that I am off by a couple of knots here and there..And I lost my video from take off to 30000ft. Somehow i pressed to record again and i lost the initial video.

 

  

[Arnold Bruce 0]

 

 

Hi Arnold.



I have taken this in-game video of me taking off from KIAH and climbing to 34000ft with A/T on. I am not good at taking videos. Hence you will see some jerks in the video trying to locate my keyboard .I was a little conscious since its my first video after a long time.But I think you basically get the point that it is very much possible to trim it entirely by feel.It will take practice to make it perfect.I have flown after a long time so you will see that I am off by a couple of knots here and there..And I lost my video from take off to 30000ft. Somehow i pressed to record again and i lost the initial video.

 

Hi Pankaj,

 

Thank you for sharing that video, but unfortunately this does not illustrate the trim problems being discussed in this thread.      Your video initially shows a trimmed 250 KIAS climb to cruise altitude, and then a level-off at altitude with the autothrottle engaged.    Since your climb speed and level-off speed apparently remained the same, you should not have even had to re-trim at all; the trim reference speed remained the same and simply holding a level attitude while the autothrottles controlled airpeed would have resulted in a level in-trim condition after flight path stability mode automatically took effect.    

 

Again though, thank you for taking the time to respond and for sharing your video.

 

 

Signed,

 

Arnold Bruce

[whoispankaj 51]

Yes I didn't have to trim after level off..the only thing was I was trimmed for 248 on climb out .So I trimmed to 250 on level off.

Just read the first post of trim being applied only when the control is in neutral position.I did not feel so while trimming .I was able to release the control wheel to whatever extent and there was no effect on the pitch. Since I was able to release the control wheel slowly as I was trimming the trim was being applied .

[whoispankaj 51]

I am uploading videos where i flew with A/P and A/T on to 15000ft and speed 250knots. I then disconnect the A/p.In one video i change from 250 to 270 and second 270 to 290.I have both the PFD and FCTL page open.You can see as i am pushing up and down the elevator and trimming, the trim is being applied and not applied at once when in neutral.

 

1. Speed Trim from 270 to 290

 

http://youtu.be/QIghaOQYIVg

 

2. Speed Trim from 250 to 270

 

http://youtu.be/Xdbp623erRs

 

Trim is being applied while I am still pulling/pushing the yoke to maintain level flight.Hope these videos put rest to the argument that the trim is only applied once control is in neutral.

 

This also answers your post which mentions its not possible to manually trim the plane without using the cheat.

[Tabs 2,790]

Ryan, changing null zones in FSX's controller calibration menu and/or PMDG's 777 CDU menu option has no effect on the issue of trim reference speed not taking effect until controls are manually relaxed/neutralized by the user.     I'm sorry but you do not know what you are talking about.     The issue of erratic manual pitch trim  with 777 is solely a result of coding error on PMDG's side, and has been from the very beginning.     Pitch trim on the 777 should work as intuitively as it does on the 737NGX from the user perspective, but the two sims are very different animals in this regard.     This should not be happening.    

 

A trim reference speed 'cheat' should not be required on the 777 any more than it would be on the 737NGX, but it is currently an absolute necessity for consistent, predictable, and precise manual trimming.     For that matter, why was PMDG compelled to even include this 'cheat' in the SP1 update unless they anticipated that 777 users would be having problems otherwise?     Again, this cheat should not be necessary at all if the manual trim behavior were functioning correctly.  

 

Can PMDG just please stop denying there is a problem and instead work on resolving the issue with another update?

 

Signed,

 

Arnold Bruce

 

Arnold,

 

Making comments like "You don't know what you're talking about." and declaring that you alone know why a problem that other people in this thread (including several real world pilots) aren't seeing to the only guy at this company whose job it is to represent the interests of the user base to the programmers is not going to get you what you want, I'll tell you that right now. We have put a crazy amount of time and effort into this product and if you know of something that does it better that doesn't cost 10 million dollars like a real world sim does, then by all means, get that and use it instead.

 

Now:

 

I took this photo earlier this summer sitting in the left seat of a 777 level D full flight simulator: 

 

 

I paid extremely close attention to how the trimming process felt when I was flying it over several hours. There is simply no way to accurately reproduce what it actually feels like in FSX using standard consumer joysticks and yokes. This applies to every single aircraft Boeing makes. (an Airbus actually is possible because there are no variable forces) I've flown an NG sim as well and the NGX trimming doesn't "feel" right either in FSX compared to the real thing. We are not just making up what we did here in the 777 - this is how it works on the real aircraft and I think what we've done in SP1b is as close as we're going to get without having some super expensive force feedback setup that can accurately reproduce how the control column actually feels and deflects. *THAT*, combined with trying to show people what the logic is actually doing internally is why we included the show trim reference speed option, not because we know we've lied to everyone and created a bad model of the system again in SP1. Again, you have two people here in this thread who were huge critics of the RTM version FBW saying that they're largely happy with the SP1b version and one of them is a real life 777 pilot.

 

The procedure I used in the sim that seemed to work best was to input constant trim until I felt the force/pressure needed to maintain my desired flight path relieve from the yoke and then I would give a short blip trim click. I can do this without difficulty in our version of it using deflection as a stand-in for the pressure the real thing has. I felt the real thing with my own hands and I believe what we have is very close and represents a good compromise given the feel limitations I described above.

 

I want to point out too that nothing in the real airplane's system is completely perfect either. If you firewall the thrust or go from 0 to max speedbrakes quickly, the plane does actually pitch up noticeably until the FBW starts compensating - this is not some exacting system that flies on rails by reacting instantly to anything you do. Trimming is the same way - it's easy to get it so that you don't feel pressure on the yoke but there is always some variability. If you're handflying the airplane, the assumption Boeing makes is that your hands are on the yoke and you are manually giving it input. Think about the small little fingertip type corrections you give a car when you're driving it on a straight freeway - the car is generally "in trim" and stable, but you don't just take your hands off the wheel and expect it to go for very long without some kind of drift. If you want an airliner to perfectly hold something with your hands off the controls, that's what the AP is for.

[whoispankaj 51]

I think we are finally done with this thread.

[pete_auau 1,153]

Can PMDG just please stop denying there is a problem and instead work on resolving the issue with another update?

Already answered many times already, there is no issues now  other  than  getting into a real world t7  and flying  that.

[SuperG 31]

 

I guess the system needs a tiny fine tune but it looks like it's getting there :-) 

 

Alex

 

 

Ryan, changing null zones in FSX's controller calibration menu and/or PMDG's 777 CDU menu option has no effect on the issue of trim reference speed not taking effect until controls are manually relaxed/neutralized by the user.     I'm sorry but you do not know what you are talking about.     The issue of erratic manual pitch trim  with 777 is solely a result of coding error on PMDG's side, and has been from the very beginning.     Pitch trim on the 777 should work as intuitively as it does on the 737NGX from the user perspective, but the two sims are very different animals in this regard.     This should not be happening.    

 

A trim reference speed 'cheat' should not be required on the 777 any more than it would be on the 737NGX, but it is currently an absolute necessity for consistent, predictable, and precise manual trimming.     For that matter, why was PMDG compelled to even include this 'cheat' in the SP1 update unless they anticipated that 777 users would be having problems otherwise?     Again, this cheat should not be necessary at all if the manual trim behavior were functioning correctly.  

 

Can PMDG just please stop denying there is a problem and instead work on resolving the issue with another update?

 

Signed,

 

Arnold Bruce

 

 

Partial knowledge is a dangerous thing, as it leads you to imagine you're more of an expert than you actually are! 

[CaptKornDog 281]

Hi Ryan,

 

Now my question... I'm prepared to be hit for this, however I'm really being serious (friendly), and if it comes across as anything other than that, I apologize in advance.

 

Question:  Since we all are dealing with an OLD simulator (FSX), and the limitations of it, AND the many different types of hardware with null zones, noise, and all the other things that are hindrances to the FBW simulation PMDG has tried to make as close as possible, given the limitations,  has PMDG considered the possibility (don't even know if this is possible) of adding an override option via the PMDG options in the FMC to allow the trim to operate like the 737, meaning NO FBW?  Yeah, I know.... far fetched, no flaming please.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if outside issues such as hardware, software, no force-feedback, etc are already hindering the huge effort you guys made to simulate this feature, but all of these other issues are "ruining" the experience, or not allowing PMDG's hard work to give the experience it's aiming for, is it worth an option to override it?  Kind of like how PMDG's stance was about building a weather radar.  You weren't going to do it unless it could be simulated accurately.   I'm not saying it doesn't work for some people, but from what I've seen, and what others are reporting, it seems as if it's hard to really simulate it within the simulator's confines.

 

John

I think that's not a bad idea, actually. So many different hardware setups on a desktop simulator, it does make sense to me; that and I'm always a fan of giving the consumer options.