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Guest Peter Sidoli

CIRCLE TO LAND??

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Barry-I think you are talking two different issues.You are treating a circling approach as if it must be flown to absolute minimums. That is is not the case-in fact I almost always flew a circling approach at my home airport in nice vfr after my last weekly hood practice because my hangar was at the other end of the airport on another runway which was not the favorite runway. This was not the least bit unsafe and a real time/fuel saver. As I mentioned above-it is common in my area (today for instance) to have high winds but also a fairly decent ceiling while ifr, not severe. Why not shoot the ils to below the ceiling, then in great vfr visibility circle to land on a runway that favors the wind? In this case we would increase safety.As mentioned before-class "G" airspace allows day VFR pilots to fly in 1 sm (notice statue mile!) and clear of clouds under 1200 ft above the surface -so you could be out flying pattern work in these conditions! Special VFR allows the same with an atc clearance.Frankly-I find that a little scarier than a circling approach. A highly trained IFR pilot flying a circling approach in 2.5 miles visibility (which I believe was your example) certainly is more comforting than a VFR pilot flying in 1sm-but that is legal by the regs in certain situations!The point is -we all have our personal minimums, and that is where judgement comes in. Some pilots will scrub a flight or divert somewhere else if an ils approach is near minimums-others go for it. The same applies to a circling approach. I don't know too many vfr pilots that would go fly pattern work at a classs g airport with 1sm-but there are probably those that do.In your scenerio above, I personally would go at 2.5 miles for the circle-that is almost vfr-anything less than 2 and I'd be asking for something else-but that is my comfort level. If it isn't yours-of course as PIC you can do something else.http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

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Guest Peter Sidoli

EdMay I make it clear I am not against circles to land and my caution is purely levelled at Minima conditions and below minima conditions.In reasonable weather as Geoff pointed out a circle is a good way to get to an into wind runway and a 1000 feet and 3 miles sounds sensible.Where the circle is wrong is where a circle is considered as some sort of instrument procedure when in reality it is not.Many airfields cannot have instrument approaches onto certain runways often because of terrain or obstacles and once away from the instrument approach the pilot is in no mans land and alone should the conditions deteriorate further or should he become uncertain of his position.Turn back to the instrument runway and pick up the missed procedure sounds great in the confines of armchair piloting but is itself fraught with risk in minimal or below minimal conditions.This is espececially true in strong drift entering cloud or deteriorating visibility as then turning back depends on where you are when you turn back.Having turned back you then have to make a complete course reversal to establish on the instrument missed approach.All this low level at slow speed making steeper turns to try and stay within the confines of the field.Throw in low cloud poor vis and no wonder the airlines require higher minima to make circles acceptably safe.In a light twin I would tend to take even a 20 kt tailwind and land off the instrument approach subject to runway length but frankly most runways with instrument approaches will easely take a light twin with 20 kt or even 30 kt tailwind.So I am not against cirles in reasonable conditions but having experienced what could have turned into a nasty situation in a Citation Bravo with two of us as crew I would stress treating them with caution as the accident stats implyPeter

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Guest Peter Sidoli

GeofDo you have a pic of your Baron 55 ? what vintage is she ? is she deiced? I loved the one I flew last year and used to take her into a 450 metre disused airfield.Not as bad as it sounds as this was a useable piece of an ex wartime runway and over running would have meant stones rather than the clean piece of tarmac.I never went over the clean bit on either takeoff or landing which shows how capable this aircraft is.Peter

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1974 vintage-prop and windshield alch, boots on the wings. She is a wonderful machine, and I got a couple great partners along with her.I do miss the Deb-but this is just a mean lean travel machine! Here she is on the ramp at Ogden, Utah on a trip I took last summer.http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

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Guest Capn Tall

Peter,I agree with you that a circle-to-land maneuver has more risk than a straight in approach to a land and as I said if all runways were equiped with an ILS the world would be rosey. But since they don't, what I'm concerned about is hearing people (not you) saying that the circling approach is UNSAFE and should be done away with. When done as it was meant to be done using the proper speed for the category your aircraft is in and having the required visibility and if you have good situational awareness of where you are at and where you are going, a circling approach can be done safely.I will say that years ago when many more (make that most) of the airports we served with the turboprop and DC-9's didn't have ILS, we became very proficient at doing circles especially in the mid west. In todays world most of the large Airlines jets only go into larger airports. But if you talk to the commuter pilots, I think you will find that the circle-to-land is still used and it is still required in GA during an Instrument Flight Review.Ed

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