A 777 Challenge

[MarkW 1,490]

Thanks for watching and the feedback Kyle, that was really fun to try and looking at Google Maps with your description made identification of the roads much easier, especially the toll road because I could see it curving around the far end of the airport on both the map an Orbx vector.   I do want to try this again by making the turn a little later and also not so abruptly.....I really threw it over initially and a more gentle turn would probably work out perfectly.

[777simmer 117]

I think you did pretty good.....like you said, bit early on the turn (I would not turn less steep, just a little later so you have a longer final).....but otherwise I would say ready for your check :-)

 

To be able to estimate thing better during visual maneuvering, like:

Height vs distance, and speed over ground I use zoom at 100%

 

I realize it is more difficult to see both the displays as well as outside at the same time......but you still have trackIR.

Plus, you could, just for the estimate on when to turn to final, switch back and forth to 100% zoom a couple of times untill you think, NOW, and once you have started your turn you could leave it at 70% again to see both the displays and the runway outside. (things will still be cropped on final with 70% but with a little help of the Vasi lights and the proper descend rate that should be no big problem).

 

May the force be with you!

[kevinh 409]

Set yourself up on a flight that comes up the BARIN (essentially anywhere from the south). Descend on the STAR, which will get you down to 4000. When you're on an early downwind (over Route 50, or just after STAYO, for those unfamiliar with the roads here), call the field in sight, get a clearance for the visual, descend to about 2000 by the Dulles Toll/Access Road, and then begin a turn inbound such that you intercept the centerline at about 1.2nm out. For reference, the plane looked to be fully configured when it was flying what would be its "base" leg. From there, land the plane (without automation) in pro form, remembering that it's still 0620 and some people are still dead asleep on the overnight flight.

 

Interesting scenario. I might try and fly it, though Mark seems to have done a very good job already.

 

I'm a bit surprised such a late intercept is considered safe, even when visual. 1.2 nm represents about 400 ft AGL. That's quite late to be stablised on the glidepath. The pilot must have been keen to get on the ground quickly. Also he appears to have flown low over populated areas not normally overflown. Is that OK with the noise lobby, especially at 0620? I doubt anyone on board would still have been asleep. These days the cabin crew will have woken you up long before then, especially flying into IAD. There would have been people on the ground still asleep for sure.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

I'm a bit surprised such a late intercept is considered safe, even when visual. 1.2 nm represents about 400 ft AGL. That's quite late to be stablised on the glidepath. The pilot must have been keen to get on the ground quickly. Also he appears to have flown low over populated areas not normally overflown. Is that OK with the noise lobby, especially at 0620? I doubt anyone on board would still have been asleep. These days the cabin crew will have woken you up long before then, especially flying into IAD. There would have been people on the ground still asleep for sure.

 

It was definitely out of the norm.  I've never seen any heavy do that, but I've seen a few RJs (usually Dashes, actually, but also RJs).  Remember that this was a visual, though, so it's not like the pilot was chasing needles.  The rollout was pretty spot on, and it seemed on path or slightly above.  Who knows if the airline fussed at them or not.

 

As far as the noise lobby goes, it's pretty tame here.  In all actuality, the bulk of the complaints comes from the area of the standard approach paths due north of the airport, followed only by the area due south of the airport (again, in the normal approach paths).  Luckily, the local governments seem to have a keen understanding that all of these houses were built around the late 90s and early 2000s, while the airport had been out in farm land since about 1960.  WMATA (the airport authority) fields the complaints, and, from what I understand, unless there was some egregous/abnormal flight path, they just file it and move on.  In fact, when my dad had his house built (about 2 miles away from the departure end of one of the runways, mind you), he had to sign a waiver saying "I know the airport's there, and I waive my right to complain like an idiot for building my house so close to the airport."  So, the stance here on noise is very different from a lot of other places (most notably foreign ones, but also even local ones: BWI and DCA have noise abatement procedures - IAD not so much, but again, one can defer to the "who was there first" argument to a certain degree).

 

In any case, the areas where the 777 was pretty low were predominantly industrial/commercial.  There's one apartment complex that was south of the path (which incidentally got hit by a Cessna a couple years ago), and the only other non-commercial/industrial areas traversed were mostly hotel properties.  People were probably still sleeping, for sure, but I doubt it sounded too abnormal for them.

[jfriz 27]

Excellent video Mark, thanks for sharing.

 

Jerry Friz

[RickB1293 9]

Thanks Kyle and Mark,

 

That was a pretty awsome approach and landing, like an FA-18 on short final to the Nimitz!. They don't land, they just sort of control the crash. It reminded me of my Navy days where all the pilots were cowboys and deadstick was the norm. I have a couple of questions about procedure.

 

1 - I noticed that your approach was made with the Rad Alt off. Is that pilot preference or is there another reason?

2 - Depending on conditions, I enter the landing speed at Vref+5 in the CDU during my setup for the approach. The NGX does this automatically but not the T7. Is this SOP or pilot preference?

3 - No landing lights? :huh: You were pretty busy during the approach so I'll bet you expected your PM to handle that flow.

4 - What program do you use to make your videos? They are really nicely done. Was your commentary real time and if so I respect your calm demeanor during that turn from base (and the uh-oh moment)!

 

I've been letting the autopilot do all of the work and I see now that IRL, the PF makes most of the landings sans automation. I've got a lot of learning to to do. If I'm high on the approach or miss-time the turn from base to final I usually go missed and execute a go around. Is it ok to land long provided the aircraft is capable?

 

Finally, I've been buying up the MSE photoreal packages for the areas I fly frequently. You mentioned UTX, is that a good package for the areas I don't use photoreal?

 

Again, thanks guys, I really appreciate the time and expertise you share on this forum. It makes this hobby more real and although I'll never fly IRL, I (and I'm sure many others) appreciate the knowledge you share. 

[martin-w 3,234]

I'm a bit surprised such a late intercept is considered safe, even when visual. 1.2 nm represents about 400 ft AGL. That's quite late to be stablised on the glidepath. The pilot must have been keen to get on the ground quickly. Also he appears to have flown low over populated areas not normally overflown.

Like Kevin I was very, very surprised by the late intercept, 1.2 nm seems ludicrous, when I do such things in the sim, I regard myself as being very naughty.

 

It was definitely out of the norm. I've never seen any heavy do that, but I've seen a few RJs (usually Dashes, actually, but also RJs). Remember that this was a visual, though, so it's not like the pilot was chasing needles.

 

 

 

Kyle, perhaps there were circumstances at play that demanded an expedited landing? I don't mean an emergency, but some reason why a less than conventional landing was called for. Seems a bit irresponsible for a pilot of a sizable airliner to decide on such a procedure without good reason.

 

Marks video was great, enjoyed it very much. A/T off though... I gather in the real world A/T on is the norm, and even specified by the airlines. Any comments on that Rob?

 

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

1 - I noticed that your approach was made with the Rad Alt off. Is that pilot preference or is there another reason?

 

You mean without MINS set?  It's a visual approach.  There are no mins for a visual approach because a visual approach requires you to have the field in sight.  In order to continue past mins on an approach, you must have the field in sight (more specifically, the "runway environment").  I've heard this a few times from the sim crowd (I think in Mark's video, too), which is somewhat troubling, but not entirely unexpected given how many of them start with the ILS as their first approach.

 

 

 

2 - Depending on conditions, I enter the landing speed at Vref+5 in the CDU during my setup for the approach. The NGX does this automatically but not the T7. Is this SOP or pilot preference?

 

Just select the relevant line on the REF page.  It's the speed window that you need to pay attention to and adjust for wind conditions.  This would be either SOP or pilot preference, depending on the airline.

 

 

 

3 - No landing lights?  You were pretty busy during the approach so I'll bet you expected your PM to handle that flow.

 

For what it's worth, he mentioned more than a few times that he just loaded the flight up to make a quick approach, not to be fully accurate, procedures-wise.

 

 

 

Is it ok to land long provided the aircraft is capable?

 

Absolutely.  A lot of people will argue that you should just go around, but as someone who occasionally goes up to a 2000 x 40 strip, I don't see the a huge difference between landing right on the touchdown bars, or landing in the last third of the runway at JYO (about 2000 feet).  I can stop a 172 in about 800 feet.  I'm not going to push it down to the performance numbers, but I'm not going to argue that you need to put it down on the same spot of every runway.

 

 

 

Like Kevin I was very, very surprised by the late intercept, 1.2 nm seems ludicrous, when I do such things in the sim, I regard myself as being very naughty.

 

Kyle, perhaps there were circumstances at play that demanded an expedited landing? I don't mean an emergency, but some reason why a less than conventional landing was called for. Seems a bit irresponsible for a pilot of a sizable airliner to decide on such a procedure without good reason.

 

It's pushing it, but I don't see it as ludicrous.  Then again, I often visit a park/airport where 757s regularly make a 45 degree turn to final at about 3/4 of a mile:

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1409/00443RIVER_VIS19.PDF

 

Again, I insist that it's not irresponsible.  I don't see how.  Sure it leaves you with less room to establish yourself, but it's a visual approach.  It's not like you need to hunt for needles.  By the time the plane disappeared over the trees, it was stable on the path.  I wasn't as specific in my initial post, either, as it wasn't a 90 degree turn to get established by 1.2.

 

I didn't hear anything from my friends on that shift working at Potomac (and they tell me about everything).  My bet is the pilot was just ready to put the plane on the ground.  That, or he or she had to use the bathroom and it was a little too late to hit the lav.

[serviceceiling 135]

Roger that, I'll probably post a screenshot-report of this flight. I'll use real weather for this exact morning I guess. 

[777simmer 117]

We have had a (some) discussion(s) on AT use and SOP.

It is different at each Airline.

 

LH SOP have their pilots disconnects both AT and AP when flying manual (I was told).

Other airlinds have an AT allways on SOP.

We can do as we like but AT on is recommended.

 

With AT on you select Vref from the CDU and put the MCP speed bug 5kt over that on final.

With AT off you should add 1/2steady headwind+full gusts (but max add 20kt).

(see FCTM general info/command speed/landing)

[RickB1293 9]

Thanks for the reply Kyle. I'm sure you get somewhat tired of the rookie questions but I do appreciate your sharing your expertise.

[FlyGuy42 4]

This sounds like fun, I'll definitely give this a go once I've finished my Vienna-Dubai flight.

 

Thanks for sharing, Kyle!

 

Regards.

[MarkW 1,490]

I did set the BARO just as part of setting up the ILS data, even though not technically used on a visual approach.

 

My landing lights were on because I took off and leveled at 5000ft then turned towards the first waypoint in the STAR.  I just never turned them off after takeoff, which you would probably not do anyway as I stayed below 10,000ft.

 

As for the videos, I record them with FRAPS and edit them all with Sony Vegas.  Fairly easy to use once you get used to it and yes the voice was all done live.  If you watch some of my other videos like the Concorde flights, etc. those are done a bit differently because I use two computers for flying online so I have to record the voice (my voice and the controller comms) on a separate computer using Audacity (free) and then edit it all together with Vegas.

[nikeulas 0]

If you watch some of my other videos like the Concorde flights, etc. 

 

 

Excellent videos by the way 

[MarkW 1,490]

Excellent videos by the way 

 

Thanks!